Draft America's Daughter's Act
#31
Zubr, I think our entire culture is entirely wrong.  Women should value the men in their lives.  They should never denigrate those who are willing to stand up and protect them. 

I too think men who serve - no matter where - have a particular culture and attitude.  They are worthy of our respect, so we are on the same page there.  On behalf of my family I thank you and I would extend the same thanks to yours.  We need more brave, strong men in this world.

I am sorry if I came across as preachy.  I'm tried, puking, and I have a daughter refusing to do her math for 3 days running.  It may have leaked through more than I intended.  Please forgive me.

In terms of a group of society being ungrateful for what they have: once again, you are correct.  Men should be appreciated.  I too hate the anti-male crap I see.  I especially dislike when men are portrayed as little more than hapless boobs or just another child on TV.  It perpetuates the problem.  But I guess maybe in Colorado, I don't see it as much.  I hang in traditional circles.  Even the school I taught at is remarkably traditional in attitudes.  When there's a big paper delivery, all the boys of the upper school are called in to help tote paper.  The girls could probably do it, but they are never called down.  I've never heard any one complain either.  I remember my boss holding the door open for me at school and young men carrying stacks of books to help out and be kind.  The "men folk" here are strong, silent, and really protective.  I've never seen a woman anywhere near them that would dare denigrate them.  I'm fairly sure that's not normal anywhere but in my strange little world in the Wild West.  I don't remember those kinds of things when I lived near DC. 

There is a huge difference between argument A and argument B.  While both focus on gender, A justifies differences based in reality, logic, and historical fact; B asserts power with zero substantiation.  Just because both focus on women as different doesn't mean that we should hide the truth and not allow reason and reality to argue for us.  "I am woman; hear me roar!" is simply an assertion of power without anything to back it up.  It's silly, overly emotional BS.  Why not point out the flaws in it and state truth in its stead?  These women think they are wonderful; let them learn differently.  They think they are smart; let them feel stupid.  They believe she who shouts loudest speaks truth; let them learn that real truth is self-evident and needs no shouting.  Those crazy women who scream their support for abortion while topless in churches (Femen?) destroy their own argument by their very behavior.  Let them look and sound ridiculous and unabashedly present truth.  Stand with dignity and honor and anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear will perceive the differences between a woman saying A and a lunatic chanting B.

While I appreciate your praise for what I am attempting here, I guess I wonder if this is entirely something women should do.  If we want men to lead, don't we need to also be willing to step back and let them lead?  Maybe this is oversharing but here we go:  My mom is really aggressive (I had to get it from somewhere right?).  She won't let my father make a decision on anything without second guessing him or deriding him.  Pilgrim's mom is much the same way - if not a little more so.  We had to make a choice in how we wanted to have our family function.  And it was hard.  I mean really hard.  I had to shut up and let him lead.  That's not an easy thing for a forceful woman who used to be the primary bread winner for the family.  At one time I was even Pilgrim's boss.  I had to take **huge** steps back in order to shift the dynamics in our house.  I had to choose to shut up so he could be heard.  Maybe instead of saying women should "do something,"  the heart of it is learning to be quiet.  I don't know . . .  (If you look at the length of what I've written here, I guess I don't do it very well.  :))

I knew your gentleman was away; I'm glad he's back.  I hope you two have a great time!  Is Armenian cheese as good as French cheese?  Yum . . .
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#32
(05-18-2016, 05:40 PM)Zubr Wrote: You’re also missing the point on exceptionalism.  I didn’t say that it isn’t factual.  Scroll and you will see I said women are different and have different roles.  Anyone who disagrees with this has rocks in their head to be blunt.  What I said about exceptionalism is that it shouldn’t be the focus because the same argument can be used by feminists as well.  Both cases are insinuating women should have different treatment because of gender. 

Why shouldn't they, if men and women aren't the same? Both the traditional view and the feminist view treat women differently, but the feminists try to make women into something they aren't, men, which is unnatural.

But, as I've said on gay marriage and bathrooms for everyone, marriage and toilets and combat aren't the issue. It's all about enforcing a worldview, that men and women are identical except for the plumbing (which, of course, can be changed if you want), and that any sort of distinction between the sexes is wrong. But men and women aren't identical, and mothers and fathers are different and bring different things to a child's life, and there is such a thing as masculine and feminine. There's a reason why courage, particularly in battle, is considered 'manly', and we tell someone to 'man up'. The politically-correct can say 'woman up' all they want, but we all know it's not the same. Is it any wonder that homosexuality and transgenderism are being so accepted - not to mention the hatred of children, as discussed elsewhere - now that we've destroyed the family and any concept of one's sex having any meaning?

(05-18-2016, 05:40 PM)Zubr Wrote: As of Monday, my boyfriend will be back from the Caucasus and Russia.  Instead of coming here to kill time, I’ll listen to his enlightened ramblings on many, many things.  And we're going to Montreal in search of Armenian cheese next weekend.  But that makes us two unmarried childless selfish people spending our money on frivolous things....so I'm part of that culture too, I guess.

I know that wasn't directed at me, but I hope you don't feel that you're unwanted here. I enjoy reading your posts and your opinions, and any message board is going to have people who disagree with each other or where things just aren't expressed well or what we'd pick up from speech just doesn't translate into writing. And there's nothing wrong with travelling and spending money, assuming you have the extra money to spend, and it's no sin to be unmarried, especially if you haven't found the right person yet. There's a big difference between finding oneself childless and being childless because of choice and selfishness, and you know which it is. We aren't Protestants, where fun = sin, and while there's a huge lack of responsibility in today's society, that doesn't mean we should never enjoy ourselves.
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#33
Fontevrault and Paul,

I'll reply to you both in one shot.  You're pregnant and dealing with a lot, Fontevrault, so no hard feelings.  Paul, thank you for your thoughts on the post.

Let me explain the core of this exceptionalism argument.  I think we’re all pretty much aware one of the running themes of discussion when it comes to the ‘About Women’ forum is the charge ‘all you women, traditionalists and bra burners are the same’.  Naturally, the women here take offence to that because they know one group of women doesn’t speak for the other.  In fact, it’s insulting.  However, it seems as though we always rely upon arguments based upon exceptionality.  Exceptionality is logical, it’s correct and I’m not arguing that.  All I am saying is to avoid this label of being all the same, we need to shift the focus from our tried and true arguments to a focus on solutions or develop new approaches to the question.  When dealing with those that have a preconceived agenda (I am NOT saying this of anyone here, just experience with these types), it pays to focus on positive aspects on what women are actually doing instead of rehashing the arguments that get us nowhere. 

You have to understand; I work in a sociology department. (That's my own fault but it was the only way to study some topics at the time.)  Honestly, I have no male colleagues at all.  I don't mean male academics (there are those) but fellow researchers.  Why is that? Maybe because the person in charge of research and funding is a 60+ year old radical Marxist feminist.  It's impossible that young men have not applied for jobs there; just saying.  It’s a very hostile environment towards men and any pro-Western background.  Now, their big topic is being against ‘inspiration porn’.  They are very dismissive of any traditional roles of men but never consider the fact the traditional roles of men keep them safe so that they can go to work.  They get to play in the society to their heart’s content but pay nothing. 

Biggest example of hypocrisy: they lobbied that more security guards to walk women in the parking lot at night are needed.  That’s fair.  But who were hired?  Men.  And my co-workers were upset.  If you didn’t want men, why not get women to get a buddy system then?!  So, I'm pretty tied of all these women shifting policies but having no skin in the matter.  I know sane, logical women wouldn't make the same arguments and would respect male roles, but every-damn-day, I see otherwise. 

I feel as though I do not communicate myself well here.  More than once assumptions have been made that twisted a point.  But that’s my fault as I am unfamiliar with forum discourse (forum virgin) and I probably do not express myself well.  I know I have terrible grammar as I missed the foundational years of that.  So, that might change the meaning of sentences.  It’s natural for people to discuss or disagree but I really think my views are not favourable for a Traditionalist Catholic audience.

As for the cheese, well, I don’t think it’s as good as French cheese.  However, we heard that the Armenian string cheese is easily found in the city so obviously, we need to find it to relive our youth.
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#34
WOW! You guys wrote a dissertation on this issue while I was away!! It would take me a day or 2 to reply to everything so I'm just going to summarize.

@Zubr: I LOVE you!!! You seriously are a critical and enlightened thinker! You also hit the nail on the head with a sledgehammer!

@Fontevault:
1) I never once denigrated stay at home moms or looked down upon them. In fact, my wife is one and plans to homeschool when our kids are old enough. If I am ever in a position to build a memorial to stay at home moms, I'll add your name to it ok?

2) However, you being a stay at home mom (like my wife) is NOT LEGALLY REQUIRED! It is your CHOICE! There are 2 issues at hand here. The first issue is the actual draft itself. I doubt there will ever be one again and even if there was few men (this one included) would comply. And they can't court marshal all of us! I agree the draft is effectively a moot point in this day and age however.

The real issue is the Selective Service Registration! When a man hits 18 he gets a card in the mail he is legally required to fill out and send back to the govt. It is a CRIME with CONSEQUENCES for not filling out that card....consequences include Link 1 - Consequences

A) Fine of up to $250,000 (rarely enforced but plausible)
B) No financial aide for college
C) No drivers license in many states
D) No federal / state employment

Answer me this, do you have to face any of those consequences for not being a stay at home mom? Do you have to face any of those consequences for not having 8 babies? NO!! So while you get a life of choices with no legal consequences, men don't! We don't need a draft for men to be reduced to second-class citizens thanks to teh Selective Service Registration. Moreover, many of the state laws were in fact signed by FEMALE governors (see Driver’s License Legislation by States, Territories, and the District of Columbia. The list of female governors that enacted penalties on men were mostly Democrat-feminists too!

3) I'm sure the idea of raging man meat riding off to battle to keep you safe is intoxicatingly attractive, but lets not forget that war is a product of sin. If you mean to say that men's primary function is dependent upon the presence of sin, you better take that up with God. God created men to be more than war machines to beat the other guy into submission while the wife breaks a sweat in a factory somewhere. I don't particularly like the idea of ending someone else's life because someone else told me to go kill them. As Cyriacus said, many wars have been fought over materialistic / ideological circumstances (i.e. imposing democracy in places that can't handle it).

You get to bring life into this world! That is an honor! Blowing someone's brains out because Congress tells me I should is hardly an honor. Signing up to be cannon fodder (Selective Service) is NO honor! Taking someone's life is nothing to rejoice in or find purpose in! It is sin! We don't (or shouldn't) rejoice in perpetuating sin!

4) As Zubr said, your uncles, father, etc did what they did because that was what the culture expected them to do and keep quiet about it. Also, when they came home and the wars ended women went back to the housewife routine and didn't go on running their mouths how they "needed to get out of the house." Most wives had a profound amount of respect for their husbands, many even tolerating infidelity without divorce! Today's women are the complete opposite. They are out their with their "my body, my choice" attitude doing whatever or whoever they want while stomping on men every chance they get! If you reread my posts, I asked the following question:

Quote:What exactly would a man be fighting for these days?

One of things that kept many men going on the fox holes was knowing that they would be coming home to a woman that had die hard admiration and respect for what he was doing right or wrong. It also was nice to come home and be treated like a king by the queen. Today's women think its coming to them and requires no sacrifice on their part!

5) You can tell a man to "man-up" but if I told a woman to "woman-up" meaning she should get in kitchen, make me dinner, and start having 8 babies I would be labeled a misogynist. Don't you think its telling when you can say "man-up" with NO CONSEQUENCES, but if I say "woman-up" its politically incorrect and I'd have an army of women looking to burn me at the stake? A lot of marriages end because the husband at the very least wants a stay at home wife, but wife will have none of that!

6) Yes, I know life isn't fair. The difference is that women get to choose a whole of what is "fair" for them while men just get it dished on us. Honestly, I can accept life's dish of unfairness, but not if its being served by another human being.

7) Lastly, on the other thread you started about college graduation I did chalk up a lot of the misgivings in society to men. You even stepped in yourself to say it wasn't necessarily as grim as I said. For the record, I do not condone the actions many men take against women. I had a friend in HS that thought coming to brag to me about his sexual escapades with a girl he didn't even care about and I told him off point blank. He was my best friend and after that we rarely spoke because apparently I was "too judgmental." He was treating her wrong and I wasn't going to encourage that. The issue however is that while men are held accountable women often aren't. I'm all for telling men to get with it, but women need to accept responsibility for their part too. You can't dump on men all the time and think women are angels. Much of Christianity in its present incarnation is all about telling men how bad we are, but you rarely if ever see a pastor telling a woman "put down 50 Shades of Gray, "stop gossiping with your gal pals about your husbands / each other, "ladies night /weekend out is not for indulging yourself Wife and Masseur", or "obey your husband as the Bible says." You are right that we cannot only hold 1/2 of the species accountable, but it is women who seem to be off the hook these days.

Case in point, why was is so controversial for Donald Trump to say women should face consequences for having an abortion? If you believe its murder, then its a crime and should be punishable as such. Even pro-life groups took offense to that, but logically it makes sense! I bet the same pro-life groups think men should pay child support for 18 years, but punishing women for an abortion is a no go?

8) A lot of guys end up deadbeats because they end up demoralized. Do you know what it must feel like to go slogging through work only to know that it is going to a kid whose mind is going to be poisoned against you wile your ex-wife lives it up. I had a student in my class who is a hard working guy trying to become a PA. He is also a minority with a job that doesn't pay much. The courts have ordered he pay more while his ex-wife sits home with a boyfriend that doesn't work. As a father with a daughter like him, that would enrage me that my daughter is stuck in a house with a terrible mother that subjects her to some boyfriend of questionable character while the court supports that! How do you expect a father to take interest in a child he is luck to see only on weekends? Can you really blame him? I'm not saying its right to abandon your child, but at some point people break! Women however don't have to worry about that because the court will almost always side with the mother!
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#35
Zubr, your grammar is pretty strong.  There are some here that are far worse and I've been prone to strange typos and weird repetition in my posts.  That's what you get when you are posting and doing 100 other things at once.  :)  Forums are pretty informal places.  I just type fast and so tend to post long comments.  Sometimes I ramble and get lost along the way. 

Let's be honest: those with preconceived notions about women are going to find fault with our arguments, no matter how logical they are.  They ask for facts and then denigrate those facts.  They ask for arguments, and then hate the foundation of those arguments.  They rant and rave because they can.  In the end, their anger is not something we should accommodate or work around.  You will spend all day telling them about what women do and they aren't really going to care. 

We both work in academia but in very different environments.  I'm a historian specializing in the medieval period.  So, I talk about dead white men all day and honor the contributions of great saints like Augustine and Aquinas.  I also work for a military school - founded for service men and women.  So once again, my environment is pro-men and pro-service.  We come at this from different perspectives because of our experiences.  That's good since we share our viewpoints and learn from each other.

As for traditional Catholics: we tend to be a little rigid and in your face.  We like to be right - perhaps a little too much.  We also don't like giving quarter to modernity and try very hard to oppose it in every aspect of our lives (save our insane attachment to Vox and this forum).  OK.  Maybe I'm talking more about myself now.  :)  Honestly, don't worry so much.  You are really a great lady with a perspective that is truly needed here.  Remember, I live, eat, sleep, drink in traddie circles.  All my jobs in recent memory have been in very traditional settings.  My first boss in Colorado was a Texan and a Marine - need I say more? 

Have you ever tried to make cheese?  String cheese is pretty easy (or so I hear).  It might make a fun diversion.  :)
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#36
@Fontevrault & Vox: In addition to what I wrote 2 posts above, another important point. I don't doubt the work it takes to raise 8 kids, but think about what kind of world your 8 kids are going to have to deal with when they become of age and have to leave the "Catholic bubble" you created for them. Unless you are planning to go the way of the Amish, they will have to interact with the world. They will have to hold jobs in the world. Your inaction today, enables a worse tomorrow for them. I don't want to see my kids told "Catholics need not apply" any more than you do. Our goals as parents to try and leave our kids with a world better than we found it.

With regards to your claims that "standing back to make men lead" works, that is quite manipulative at best. The fact of the matter is a traditional man stands no chance against feminist culture when other men go Benedict Arnold (you'e a historian....you know what he did) on us, and we get shouted down as misogynists by women for holding a door for crying out loud. Since you think men are such experts on war, take a lesson from this one. Sometimes the wise man knows when he cannot win a battle without asking for help! Turning one's back on someone about to get mowed down is hardly a Christian thing to do!

Think about it like this. When a feminist nut goes a tirade about how "men should have no say in the abortion argument until they can give birth" what exactly am I supposed to say? The fact of the matter is as a man I cannot experience child birth. Unless a traditional woman steps up to the plate to give witness as God would have her do, I have no argument. Woman is supposed to be the "help meet" / "the support." Well, if woman doesn't speak up loud and clear we have no support and she is not doing her job!
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#37
I'm just going to answer the cheese question.  :LOL:  My mom makes quark at home all the time.  It's easy and turns out pretty good!  Awhile ago, Gourmet Magazine published a recipe on how to make homemade fresh mozzarella.  What-a-mess.  It took a few tries to get it right but that's another cheese in our repertoire.

(05-18-2016, 08:23 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: @Zubr: I LOVE you!!! You seriously are a critical and enlightened thinker! You also hit the nail on the head with a sledgehammer!

Thanks.  :blush:  A crotchety Englishman taught me 'Logical Theory' so I learned something then.
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#38
For the sake of clarity, I'm going to quote and respond so that my answers (hopefully) make more sense.

(05-18-2016, 08:23 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: @Fontevault:
1) I never once denigrated stay at home moms or looked down upon them. In fact, my wife is one and plans to homeschool when our kids are old enough. If I am ever in a position to build a memorial to stay at home moms, I'll add your name to it ok?

2) However, you being a stay at home mom (like my wife) is NOT LEGALLY REQUIRED! It is your CHOICE! There are 2 issues at hand here. The first issue is the actual draft itself. I doubt there will ever be one again and even if there was few men (this one included) would comply. And they can't court marshal all of us! I agree the draft is effectively a moot point in this day and age however.

No I'm not legally required to do much of anything for my children.  I could sign up for state aid, send them to school, register them for before and after school programs and sit back on my but and no jack diddly all day.  But then again, that wouldn't precisely be honorable or good for my children.  Would it?  The state requires very little of parents these days and is more than happy to step in and take over if you don't comply with the law and teach them the way the state thinks you should.  Isn't that sad?  I sure think it is. 

I agree about the draft.  It would be political suicide given the nature of our current military involvements.  Nobody would be willing to authorize one.  That's lucky for you, my husband, and any other man who falls under the law.

Quote:The real issue is the Selective Service Registration! When a man hits 18 he gets a card in the mail he is legally required to fill out and send back to the govt. It is a CRIME with CONSEQUENCES for not filling out that card....consequences include Link 1 - Consequences

A) Fine of up to $250,000 (rarely enforced but plausible)
B) No financial aide for college
C) No drivers license in many states
D) No federal / state employment

Answer me this, do you have to face any of those consequences for not being a stay at home mom? Do you have to face any of those consequences for not having 8 babies? NO!! So while you get a life of choices with no legal consequences, men don't! We don't need a draft for men to be reduced to second-class citizens thanks to teh Selective Service Registration. Moreover, many of the state laws were in fact signed by FEMALE governors (see Driver’s License Legislation by States, Territories, and the District of Columbia. The list of female governors that enacted penalties on men were mostly Democrat-feminists too! 

No, I don't face those penalties.  In truth, I didn't know about them.  I was out of the country when most of the young men of my acquaintance would have received notification of it.  At an international, private school those things weren't ever discussed.  Do you ever wonder why it is so darned important for men to register for something that probably isn't going to happen?  Why attach such stiff penalties?  It seems silly; doesn't it?

Quote:3) I'm sure the idea of raging man meat riding off to battle to keep you safe is intoxicatingly attractive, but lets not forget that war is a product of sin. If you mean to say that men's primary function is dependent upon the presence of sin, you better take that up with God. God created men to be more than war machines to beat the other guy into submission while the wife breaks a sweat in a factory somewhere. I don't particularly like the idea of ending someone else's life because someone else told me to go kill them. As Cyriacus said, many wars have been fought over materialistic / ideological circumstances (i.e. imposing democracy in places that can't handle it).

You get to bring life into this world! That is an honor! Blowing someone's brains out because Congress tells me I should is hardly an honor. Signing up to be cannon fodder (Selective Service) is NO honor! Taking someone's life is nothing to rejoice in or find purpose in! It is sin! We don't (or shouldn't) rejoice in perpetuating sin!

OK.  For the record, "raging man meat" is a terrifying prospect and actually a little gross.  Please don't use that line with other pregnant women.  It makes me think of a steak and nothing is staying down right now.  Please don't make me think of food.  Yuk!

Do I find the protection my husband offers me attractive?  Yes.  Would I call war a positive good?  Never.  Would I even go so far as to suggest that recent wars (or whatever we call them these days) were somehow just? Not a chance in Hell of that one. 

War is horrible, bitter, bloody and awful.  I don't want to romanticize it one bit.  That wouldn't be fair to anyone who has gone to war.  I don't rejoice in the necessity of sin either.  But I do acknowledge that sometimes we need strong men to stand guard and protect us. 

I remember 9/11 and the stories my sister tells of being at the Pentagon.  She was at the Naval Annex when the plane hit.  Men and women in uniform dropped everything and ran into the building.  My cousin went into the Twin Towers in NYC and spent days digging through the rubble there.  (He's a cop.)  There is honor in both those actions.  That honor comes not from killing but from being willing to put yourself in harm's way in order to help others.  That too is a part of military service.  Neither my sister nor my cousin walked away from those events unscathed.  Both of them carry emotional scars that run deep.  At the same time, neither one can even conceive of walking away from the service they give.  Those scars have deepened their commitment.  I have to respect their dedication to what they see as a greater good.

Quote:4) As Zubr said, your uncles, father, etc did what they did because that was what the culture expected them to do and keep quiet about it. Also, when they came home and the wars ended women went back to the housewife routine and didn't go on running their mouths how they "needed to get out of the house." Most wives had a profound amount of respect for their husbands, many even tolerating infidelity without divorce! Today's women are the complete opposite. They are out their with their "my body, my choice" attitude doing whatever or whoever they want while stomping on men every chance they get! If you reread my posts, I asked the following question:

Quote:What exactly would a man be fighting for these days?

One of things that kept many men going on the fox holes was knowing that they would be coming home to a woman that had die hard admiration and respect for what he was doing right or wrong. It also was nice to come home and be treated like a king by the queen. Today's women think its coming to them and requires no sacrifice on their part!

DS, I don't know what men fight for these days.  I don't know how they do it because I see no honor, no reason for our entanglements and I see a culture that denigrates them.  Please believe me when I say, behaving like that is not acceptable to me.  I wish I knew how to inspire women today to respect good men and see their roles as wives and mothers as a great honor.  I don't know how to do that.  I spend much of my time trying to educate men and women about an age of faith and reason - where men and women were extraordinary in their own ways.  I find much of modern culture hostile to all that I know and all that I treasure.  I'm not sure that raging against it does one bit of good.  I also don't know that all my attempts are any better.  What can I do?  Speak softly, work hard, show that there is a different way. 

Would it help to know that my sister wants no part in marriage because she saw my parents as so toxic and she is afraid of being as abusive as my mother was to my father? 

Quote:5) You can tell a man to "man-up" but if I told a woman to "woman-up" meaning she should get in kitchen, make me dinner, and start having 8 babies I would be labeled a misogynist. Don't you think its telling when you can say "man-up" with NO CONSEQUENCES, but if I say "woman-up" its politically incorrect and I'd have an army of women looking to burn me at the stake? A lot of marriages end because the husband at the very least wants a stay at home wife, but wife will have none of that!

Actually, I've wanted to burn you in effigy a few times on these forums.  :grin:  If you notice, I didn't say "man up;"  I said "suck it up and deal."  There is a difference.  I could tell any woman the same thing.  Tell me to "suck it up and deal" any time.  It's part of life.

Quote:6) Yes, I know life isn't fair. The difference is that women get to choose a whole of what is "fair" for them while men just get it dished on us. Honestly, I can accept life's dish of unfairness, but not if its being served by another human being.

I get a lot of unfair stuff thrust upon me too.  As a traditional woman, I get to listen to my mother and mother-in-law and sister-in-law make cracks about needing birth control when I tell them I'm pregnant.  I get laughed at for wearing a skirt and told I look like I'm Amish.  Other women think I'm nuts.  I don't get to choose what's fair any more than you do.  Both of our sets of ideals are on the chopping block.  Traditional women betray their sex by choosing to stay home.  Our willingness to accept children is virtual heresy.  Make no mistake: we get our fair share of ridicule.  It happens every time I got to the grocery store, every time I go to the zoo (is that a field trip or a family?), every time I share that I homeschool (why would you want to do that?).

I think this is where we traddie women get frustrated.  You assume men are the only ones told they are sub-par. 

Quote:7) Lastly, on the other thread you started about college graduation I did chalk up a lot of the misgivings in society to men. You even stepped in yourself to say it wasn't necessarily as grim as I said. For the record, I do not condone the actions many men take against women. I had a friend in HS that thought coming to brag to me about his sexual escapades with a girl he didn't even care about and I told him off point blank. He was my best friend and after that we rarely spoke because apparently I was "too judgmental." He was treating her wrong and I wasn't going to encourage that. The issue however is that while men are held accountable women often aren't. I'm all for telling men to get with it, but women need to accept responsibility for their part too. You can't dump on men all the time and think women are angels. Much of Christianity in its present incarnation is all about telling men how bad we are, but you rarely if ever see a pastor telling a woman "put down 50 Shades of Gray, "stop gossiping with your gal pals about your husbands / each other, "ladies night /weekend out is not for indulging yourself Wife and Masseur", or "obey your husband as the Bible says." You are right that we cannot only hold 1/2 of the species accountable, but it is women who seem to be off the hook these days.

I've seen many good men get the shaft.  I've also seen many good women traumatized by the men in their lives.  I was a bridesmaid in a wedding for a dear girlfriend of mine.  She was dumped by her husband six months into their marriage. (forgive the vulgarity here) He had been fired for jacking off in his boss's office while watching porn.  He wouldn't touch his wife.  That did a number on her head for years.  Then again, another friend married his college sweetheart and she ran off with the best man a year into their marriage.  Both events were horrible, traumatic, and a complete mess.  Good people's lives were torn apart.  I'd say there's no good solution to these events.  I'd also say that very likely both parties were somehow at fault, though certainly to varying degrees.

Have I seen "the system" favor women?  Yes I have - especially when it comes to children.  Is this always a good thing?  Nope.  I've seen kids kept with crack whores.  It is disgusting.  I don't think women are angels.  If you recall that discussion of graduation: I was faulting the women and their parents.  The behavior I saw was disgraceful. 

Quote:Case in point, why was is so controversial for Donald Trump to say women should face consequences for having an abortion? If you believe its murder, then its a crime and should be punishable as such. Even pro-life groups took offense to that, but logically it makes sense! I bet the same pro-life groups think men should pay child support for 18 years, but punishing women for an abortion is a no go?

I don't know if you saw it, but I posted about this somewhere on the forum.  I'm all for women being punished for having an abortion (unless there are mitigating circumstances - like a girl of 12 being forced by someone).  It's murder.  Why shouldn't they be punished?  I get where you're coming from on that one. 

BTW, I think the reason pro-life groups are against it is because they are afraid of being branded anti-woman.  I just don't know that you can characterize every woman who gets an abortion as a victim.  I think that's a load of BS.  I do hope that women come to regret their decision and seek help afterwards.  But if abortion is illegal and doctors can be prosecuted, then women need to be prosecuted as well.

Quote:8) A lot of guys end up deadbeats because they end up demoralized. Do you know what it must feel like to go slogging through work only to know that it is going to a kid whose mind is going to be poisoned against you wile your ex-wife lives it up. I had a student in my class who is a hard working guy trying to become a PA. He is also a minority with a job that doesn't pay much. The courts have ordered he pay more while his ex-wife sits home with a boyfriend that doesn't work. As a father with a daughter like him, that would enrage me that my daughter is stuck in a house with a terrible mother that subjects her to some boyfriend of questionable character while the court supports that! How do you expect a father to take interest in a child he is luck to see only on weekends? Can you really blame him? I'm not saying its right to abandon your child, but at some point people break! Women however don't have to worry about that because the court will almost always side with the mother!

Let's start with a basic premise that we (as Catholics) should be able to agree upon: divorce no matter the circumstances is a terrible tragedy and sin.  The people who are hurt the most by it are the children involved.  Should either parent use the children as a means of punishing the other party?  Hell no!  That's immature BS that should never happen.  If you loved each other enough to get married and have children in the first place, shouldn't you respect each other enough to be reasonable for the sake of your children?  I hate it when men and women behave like total idiots because they want to walk away from a relationship. 

Let's assume that no matter who gets the kids, somebody loses.  Let's also assume that men get pushed away from their kids by catty witches (spell that with a b) who use them to manipulate the system.  That's all true.  I can understand a man's frustration in that circumstance.  But I can't understand a kid not having clothes, good food to eat, and a decent roof over his head.  Those basics really ought to be covered by both parents working together. If you can't figure that stuff out together, neither of you deserve the kids.  Want to fight about whether or not your child gets an ipad?  Go for it.  Want to debate the cost of a school trip?  That's cool with me.  I have a weird feeling I would be a terrible judge.  I'd tell the woman to get a job and ask the man to submit a budget of what he thinks he can reasonably afford.  That would be the start of the discussion.  If the two idiots couldn't figure it out and be civil, I'd hold them both in contempt and lock them in a room until they did figure it out.  - See I'm evil.  :grin:

Then again, I don't believe in divorce.  It is usually a selflish act based in "not having my needs fulfilled" or "needing my space" or some other BS that makes no sense. 

Now if there is domestic violence of some kind, that's a whole different scenario.  But I don't think that's what you're talking about here. 

DS, this is the most civil conversation I've had with you and I am really enjoying it.  I'm glad you're back!
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#39
(05-18-2016, 09:42 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: @Fontevrault & Vox: In addition to what I wrote 2 posts above, another important point. I don't doubt the work it takes to raise 8 kids, but think about what kind of world your 8 kids are going to have to deal with when they become of age and have to leave the "Catholic bubble" you created for them. Unless you are planning to go the way of the Amish, they will have to interact with the world. They will have to hold jobs in the world. Your inaction today, enables a worse tomorrow for them. I don't want to see my kids told "Catholics need not apply" any more than you do. Our goals as parents to try and leave our kids with a world better than we found it.

With regards to your claims that "standing back to make men lead" works, that is quite manipulative at best. The fact of the matter is a traditional man stands no chance against feminist culture when other men go Benedict Arnold (you'e a historian....you know what he did) on us, and we get shouted down as misogynists by women for holding a door for crying out loud. Since you think men are such experts on war, take a lesson from this one. Sometimes the wise man knows when he cannot win a battle without asking for help! Turning one's back on someone about to get mowed down is hardly a Christian thing to do!

Think about it like this. When a feminist nut goes a tirade about how "men should have no say in the abortion argument until they can give birth" what exactly am I supposed to say? The fact of the matter is as a man I cannot experience child birth. Unless a traditional woman steps up to the plate to give witness as God would have her do, I have no argument. Woman is supposed to be the "help meet" / "the support." Well, if woman doesn't speak up loud and clear we have no support and she is not doing her job!

I'm not going to touch the whole, "you've got to do something to change the world" thing.  I am a teacher, a mom, work in my community and try very hard to effect change.  I'm not sure what to do.  Do you have an idea of what I can do to make feminazis shut up an accept that they aren't the center of the universe.  I think that's a job so big I don't even know where to start.

As for the whole, letting men lead, I think you didn't quite get what I mean.  I'm not talking about a confrontation between a pro-abort lunatic who is screaming at you and telling you not to have an opinion.  I'm talking about letting the man lead in the context of family life.  I'm all for telling that pro-abort to shove it and I'd be happy to step up to the plate - even if it wasn't my husband taking the brunt of her tirade. 

But at home, our boys can't learn to lead if they don't see their father do it.  Our daughters can't accept male authority if they never experience it.  A lot of women like to be the authority on all things child related and tell their husbands what they do wrong.  They berate even under the guise of submission.  Pilgrim wasn't always the leader of our family.  As I said to Zubr, I was the primary bread winner and even his boss at one point.  I had to choose to submit in order to find peace in our home.  When I say women need to be encouraged to let men lead, that's what I mean.  The same thing needs to happen in our parish communities.  If we want men to be involved, then we need to back off a bit and let them do it.  They are grown men and don't need to be micro-manged.  Now, if my husband wants my help (or my opinion), I'm right there with him.  I'm happy to do it. 

I'll give you an example: our TLM group has a bunch of materials that are only used by us.  A few of us talked about a rolling cart that would hold it all.  I suggested to my husband (who enjoys carpentry projects) that it might be fun to make something designed to hold everything in one place and that was a bit custom in feel.  We needed few drawers for flyers, veils, and the like; some shelves for missals; and a solid surface for sign up sheets and information on the TLM for newbies.  He took it from there and came up with some ideas.  He then contacted a few of the men and suggested they spend some time hanging out this summer and working on it.  I have every confidence that these men and their sons will have a blast just being men in our garage (we have all the tools at the ready).  I am sure that the cart they design together will be super cool.  I just encouraged Pilgrim and offered to make refreshments.  The men already distribute the missals and explain the mass to newbies who visit (we are on a college campus - so there are quite a few).  This is just another opportunity for them to come together, build a sense of community, and support our TLM group in an awesome way.  They don't need me to tell them how to do the project; they might let me help sand and stain it when it's done.  Otherwise, it's their thing.  All I I needed to do was shut up and watch Pilgrim run with it.  He's amazing.
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#40
DS, I saw this article and thought of all your anger and frustration.  Thought I might share.  http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/19/the-...an-haters/

Now, keep in mind, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here.  The article expresses some of your frustration but also points out some positives attached to marriage.  Please, please, please don't shoot me for sharing it. 
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