Draft America's Daughter's Act
#51
:grin:  It has never been that DS didn't have some good points along the way.  He (perhaps like me) gets fired up in the heat of a conversation.  My husband actually asked me to stop responding to his posts because I wasn't helping him calm down and his anger was fairly serious.  We negotiated and decided if we could manage to be more civil, it would be better for both DS and me.  Pilgrim sent me the article by the way.  He specifically thought of my conversations with DS and suggested I read it.  I am grateful I did.
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#52
(05-22-2016, 08:45 AM)Fontevrault Wrote: :grin:  It has never been that DS didn't have some good points along the way.  He (perhaps like me) gets fired up in the heat of a conversation.  My husband actually asked me to stop responding to his posts because I wasn't helping him calm down and his anger was fairly serious.  We negotiated and decided if we could manage to be more civil, it would be better for both DS and me.  Pilgrim sent me the article by the way.  He specifically thought of my conversations with DS and suggested I read it.  I am grateful I did.

Wow, I'm honored to be a topic of discussion in your house LOL!!! Yes though, my anger was serious and still is for good reason. I'm at bay now though because I know sooner or later men are going to reach their limit and just walk away. When that happens, my prayer that women deal with the responsibility of their actions will come to pass and I'm going to be praising God for it every chance I get when it does! No point in raising my blood pressure fighting for something that is inevitable anyway! Men lost the world in the 70's, now its woman's to lose.  :P

(05-22-2016, 12:19 AM)introvert Wrote: I honestly don't think any woman should be participating at Dalrock, and they do. It's become a male space only recently. I'm also not calling Dalrock and so forth the manosphere, as they readily identify as such. There's the locker room manosphere (where I consider Dalrock to be, and dare not venture), and there's the more Catholic room of the manosphere, like Bonald. I don't consider them manosphere bloggers much anyway, because their philosophies are often in contradiction with the ongoing vein if you pay close attention.

Tbh, as Catholics, we should be careful what we read, as a lot of the stuff out there is contrary to our faith and the way we should be conducting ourselves. It's why I don't read a lot of alternative right blogs anymore. If they don't identify as TLM Catholics or traditional Catholics, and aren't family-oriented I hesitate to read.

If you think Bonald's interesting, you should try https://orthosphere.wordpress.com and https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com

I am careful what I read and I do speak up if I see something I don't agree with. Catholic bloggers do not have a monopoly on all that is good and some are just as bad as the feminists themselves.
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#53
(05-22-2016, 08:03 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote:
(05-22-2016, 08:45 AM)Fontevrault Wrote: :grin:  It has never been that DS didn't have some good points along the way.  He (perhaps like me) gets fired up in the heat of a conversation.  My husband actually asked me to stop responding to his posts because I wasn't helping him calm down and his anger was fairly serious.  We negotiated and decided if we could manage to be more civil, it would be better for both DS and me.  Pilgrim sent me the article by the way.  He specifically thought of my conversations with DS and suggested I read it.  I am grateful I did.

Wow, I'm honored to be a topic of discussion in your house LOL!!! Yes though, my anger was serious and still is for good reason. I'm at bay now though because I know sooner or later men are going to reach their limit and just walk away. When that happens, my prayer that women deal with the responsibility of their actions will come to pass and I'm going to be praising God for it every chance I get when it does! No point in raising my blood pressure fighting for something that is inevitable anyway! Men lost the world in the 70's, now its woman's to lose.  :P

I think it would be a great tragedy if men walked away from everything.  Then again, I'm not sure most women will listen to much else.  Just this morning, Pilgrim and I were talking about the nature of submission in marriage and why it is important.  I thought of your frustrations and commented that love and submission are things antithetical to the modern, secular view of marriage.  It takes a radical, counter-cultural understanding of that relationship to make submission and love possible.  In short, the West needs a large-scale conversion that I'm not sure is going to happen any time soon.

I don't think either you or I back down in a fight very often.  I was honestly worried about you because you were so very angry.  At the same time, your comments got me worked up to a point that I don't think I expressed myself very well and got over-committed to our posts.  Pilgrim has a long history of watching me take on a fight and shaking his head.  Let's just say that I've tilted at my fair share of windmills over the years.  :)  He was worried I was making your anger border on the unhealthy and in the process working up to some serious sin myself.  Honestly, I'm glad we've both taken a bit of a step back and are talking reasonably.  I'm not always the nicest person in a fight and I am truly sorry if my comments were ever in any way unkind or disrespectful.  I've been known to verbally bludgeon an opponent from time to time.  Pilgrim was very right to caution me to behave.  :blush:
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#54
(05-22-2016, 08:54 PM)Fontevrault Wrote: I think it would be a great tragedy if men walked away from everything.  Then again, I'm not sure most women will listen to much else.  Just this morning, Pilgrim and I were talking about the nature of submission in marriage and why it is important.  I thought of your frustrations and commented that love and submission are things antithetical to the modern, secular view of marriage.  It takes a radical, counter-cultural understanding of that relationship to make submission and love possible.  In short, the West needs a large-scale conversion that I'm not sure is going to happen any time soon.

I don't think either you or I back down in a fight very often.  I was honestly worried about you because you were so very angry.  At the same time, your comments got me worked up to a point that I don't think I expressed myself very well and got over-committed to our posts.  Pilgrim has a long history of watching me take on a fight and shaking his head.  Let's just say that I've tilted at my fair share of windmills over the years.  :)  He was worried I was making your anger border on the unhealthy and in the process working up to some serious sin myself.  Honestly, I'm glad we've both taken a bit of a step back and are talking reasonably.  I'm not always the nicest person in a fight and I am truly sorry if my comments were ever in any way unkind or disrespectful.  I've been known to verbally bludgeon an opponent from time to time.  Pilgrim was very right to caution me to behave.  :blush:

In Ancient Rome society deteriorated due to paganistic practices (i.e. orgies, homosexuality, etc) many of which corrupted the familial structure / stability.  Ancient Rome rebounded when it saw that Christians were actually doing just fine and adopted Christianity. Eerily similar to today's predicament so lets hope for the same outcome, but the big question is of coarse "when has God had enough?" After making a stop at confession last week, I've come to appreciate that when God gives you insight about something imminent you've got front row tickets to the best show in creation.....watching God straighten out a bunch of adults stuck in perpetual spiritual adolescence.
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#55
(05-22-2016, 08:54 PM)Fontevrault Wrote: I think it would be a great tragedy if men walked away from everything.  Then again, I'm not sure most women will listen to much else.

Oh believe me, this is already happening. Men have made it clear they've walked away from a lot of things, and I can see this in the current marriage rates, and if men decide to marry, who they are deciding to marry (clue: they're not crazy about N. American women)speaks volumes; the state of family court, men's participation in the workforce, etc. I think women stopped listening back in 1965, what else could have sparked the feminist movement in the 1970's?

My generation's full of Bernie-loving hipster progressives, the younger end of my husband's generation are apathetic and cold, and I feel sorry for "Gen Z."

In general, I find anger to be wasteful because what's it going to do to remedy the situation? Nothing. What we'll see are strong groups forming of people who are like-minded about preserving traditional Western culture. What people can do is create strong communal ties to strengthen our beliefs and provide safe spaces.
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#56

Nature will win out in the end, in temporal terms; she always does. Either women shape up, or they, and men, will suffer. No one likes to suffer, so...

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#57
DS, I put very little faith in temporal powers like Ancient Rome.  When the empire did finally come crashing down, it was the Christians who preserved Roman culture and learning for future generations.  Perhaps we need just such a cataclysm to rescue us from feminists and the rest of modernity alike.  I really don't want to watch it happen though.

Vox, suffering is relative.  These crazy women think power, money, and hookups are all there is.  Will they even notice the lack of intimacy and destruction of lives around them?  Do they see how they denigrate themselves?  I made such observations of my daughter's graduation.  Ostensibly intelligent, capable women behave and dress like hookers.  When I was teaching High School, there were young ladies who were on the honor roll, who wrote beautifully, spoke Latin, French and German, and had a strong grounding across all the disciplines and who were participating in orgies on a local golf course and bragging about it both to their friends and even some of the faculty.  The stuff they were doing was beyond disgusting.  These girls were half my age but had done things I had never even contemplated.  The most horrible thing of all: they saw nothing wrong with it at all.

All the character education in the world isn't going to solve such a moral deficit.  I'm not sure what would make them wake up.  I find it all depressing.  I guess at the time I was willing to believe these girls were an anomaly but perhaps they were not.  Mary-like standards of anything seem utterly missing from the world.  I am not sure what could possibly change the status quo into something palatable. 
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#58
(05-23-2016, 09:18 AM)Fontevrault Wrote: DS, I put very little faith in temporal powers like Ancient Rome.  When the empire did finally come crashing down, it was the Christians who preserved Roman culture and learning for future generations.  Perhaps we need just such a cataclysm to rescue us from feminists and the rest of modernity alike.  I really don't want to watch it happen though.

Oh I don't put any stock in temporal powers either since they all fade and are impermanent, but to save ego they sometimes halfheartedly go along with the truth to catch their breath. Once they do its right back to square one but at least the rest of us get a chance to breathe too.

(05-23-2016, 09:18 AM)Fontevrault Wrote: Vox, suffering is relative.  These crazy women think power, money, and hookups are all there is.  Will they even notice the lack of intimacy and destruction of lives around them?  Do they see how they denigrate themselves

I'm not trying to get on your case again, but they denigrate the guys too! This notion that all sexual sins occur at the instigation of men and women server as victims is a HUGE part of the problem. Even Humanae Vitae makes this unfortunate mistake. Failing to assign responsibility to women for their actions tempts them all the more to do it because like children they want to be acknowledged as a force to be reckoned with. Just because your a woman and can't fathom having an orgy that doesn't mean all women can't fathom it.

If men are such beasts then it is women who exploit them since they're supposed to be the "fairer sex" and know better! The logical pitfalls of the nobel woman / man beast actually yield the result that it is women (who knowing better) are the ones exploiting men who don't know better. I personally think both parties know better, but both parties abdicate their responsibility. The difference though is only men are held accountable.

(05-23-2016, 09:18 AM)Fontevrault Wrote: I made such observations of my daughter's graduation.  Ostensibly intelligent, capable women behave and dress like hookers.  When I was teaching High School, there were young ladies who were on the honor roll, who wrote beautifully, spoke Latin, French and German, and had a strong grounding across all the disciplines and who were participating in orgies on a local golf course and bragging about it both to their friends and even some of the faculty.  The stuff they were doing was beyond disgusting.  These girls were half my age but had done things I had never even contemplated.  The most horrible thing of all: they saw nothing wrong with it at all.

All the character education in the world isn't going to solve such a moral deficit.  I'm not sure what would make them wake up.  I find it all depressing.  I guess at the time I was willing to believe these girls were an anomaly but perhaps they were not.  Mary-like standards of anything seem utterly missing from the world.  I am not sure what could possibly change the status quo into something palatable.

The problem is many women, like feminists, get off on the idea of being able to lead a man around with their sexuality. They see power in it and they aren't afraid to use it to get high off the results. These women don't want to "submit." They want to rule. While men use fists and swords to rule, women use their sexual selves. Many men just fail to realize the misery of this....
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#59
(05-23-2016, 12:20 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: I'm not trying to get on your case again, but they denigrate the guys too! This notion that all sexual sins occur at the instigation of men and women server as victims is a HUGE part of the problem. Even Humanae Vitae makes this unfortunate mistake. Failing to assign responsibility to women for their actions tempts them all the more to do it because like children they want to be acknowledged as a force to be reckoned with. Just because your a woman and can't fathom having an orgy that doesn't mean all women can't fathom it.

It works both ways, DS. Here's the deal-- men and women start to accept standards once it's obvious the majority of each sex is willing to go with it. Ever heard of why dating in NYC is terrible? For women, it's awful because men expect women to be sexual very quickly because there are enough women out there willing to do it. The men who don't expect this are quickly dismissed by women because they're "probably gay" or something's defective. It makes no sense to figure out who did what first because it doesn't resolve the current problem.

What can assign women responsibility for their actions is to bring back shaming. I'm not a huge fan of shaming indiscriminately, but shaming worked because it made it clear certain behaviors were unaccepted and there were social consequences. You can't force people to change their beliefs, and without that you can't make social changes. En masse? NOPE. Within our own communities, yes.
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#60
(05-23-2016, 09:18 AM)Fontevrault Wrote: Ostensibly intelligent, capable women behave and dress like hookers.  When I was teaching High School, there were young ladies who were on the honor roll, who wrote beautifully, spoke Latin, French and German, and had a strong grounding across all the disciplines and who were participating in orgies on a local golf course and bragging about it both to their friends and even some of the faculty.  The stuff they were doing was beyond disgusting.  These girls were half my age but had done things I had never even contemplated.  The most horrible thing of all: they saw nothing wrong with it at all.

All the character education in the world isn't going to solve such a moral deficit.

This is the error of Plato and the Enlightenment thinkers, that immorality is cured by knowledge; it is standard dogma to our modern way of thinking. I think the Jesuits had the correct view about the relation of education and morality:

Quote:Lastly, the [Jesuit] system does not share the illusion of those who seem to imagine that education, understood as an enriching and stimulating of the intellectual faculties, has a morally elevating influence in human life. While conceding the effects of education in energizing and refining imagination, taste, understanding, and powers of observation, we have always held that knowledge and intellectual development of themselves have no moral efficacy. Only religion can purify the heart, and guide and strengthen the will.
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