Why We Should All “Face East” During the Eucharistic Prayer [?]
#11
I'm not knowledgeable enough on this, and I wonder why Cardinal Ratzinger/PBXVI seems to be so traditional, and yet many say he is a modernist?
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#12
(07-20-2016, 08:50 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: Thanks.

I also just researched and found out that many of the Churches in Rome, including St. Peter's, are facing the wrong way.

So now I know about geographic Ad Orientum and liturgical Ad Orientum.

Always learning new things! :)

Not exactly. The priest, who happens to be facing the people, is also facing East. The practice in the early Church, according to liturgists like Klaus Gamber, was that during the anaphora, the laity turned their back to the priest so all faced East together.

To me, the clincher is what formerbuddhist said–every Rite of the Church faces ad orientem except the Novus Ordo.
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#13
So did they not say the TLM at St Peter's with the priest facing the altar (back to the people) before VII?

Also, I like the explanation given in this blog post:
http://www.onepeterfive.com/problem-zomb...icipation/

Quote:“Every movement in the Liturgy is symbolic. For instance, we face west during the exorcism part of the Baptism ceremony and then turn to the east (the altar) to declare our allegiance to Christ. It seems strange that the priest would face west to lead us in prayer/speaking to God on our behalf.”
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#14
I understand  and accept the symbolism, etc., especially with regards to facing east during liturgical prayer, which, by the way, I'm all for.  However, does God not "hear" us no matter which direction we face or what position we are in while praying privately?  Does He "hear" us "better" if we stand and face east rather than if we sit and face north?

Just as an aside, in Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism [i]ad orientem[/i] is standard and common.  In fact, I've never seen otherwise except in the Catholic N.O., as FB and Aquinas noted.
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#15
Facing east for prayer is the tradition. "Is it tradition? Ask no more."

Of course God hears us no matter our directionality. Facing east is for us, not for God. The tradition tells us that facing east properly orients us. We can see the fruit of facing each other -- and it is poisonous.
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#16
(07-20-2016, 07:20 PM)ermy_law Wrote: Facing east for prayer is the tradition. "Is it tradition? Ask no more."

Of course God hears us no matter our directionality. Facing east is for us, not for God. The tradition tells us that facing east properly orients us. We can see the fruit of facing each other -- and it is poisonous.

I don't disagree--not at all.  I'd just add that being properly oriented is, imnsho, a function of the heart far more than which point of the compass we face.
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#17
That's very true, J Michael.  But we are material beings so our hearts are influenced by our physical orientations.  For example, is there a difference between these two scenarios:

(1) I look my wife directly in the eye and, in a serious tone, tell her that I love her.

(2) I turn away from my wife and, in a flippant tone, tell her that I love her.

First, the effect on the hearer is different for each of these scenarios.  Second, if I only ever do the second, after some time, that flippancy will have an effect on me as the speaker as well. 

In either case, she can hear what I'm saying, but the effect on both of us is different depending on the scenario, even if the words are the same.  Our hearts are impacted by things like this.  And since God made us in this fashion that we are impacted by such things, it makes sense to work with what he has given us.
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#18
(07-21-2016, 01:05 PM)ermy_law Wrote: That's very true, J Michael.  But we are material beings so our hearts are influenced by our physical orientations.  For example, is there a difference between these two scenarios:

(1) I look my wife directly in the eye and, in a serious tone, tell her that I love her.

(2) I turn away from my wife and, in a flippant tone, tell her that I love her.

First, the effect on the hearer is different for each of these scenarios.  Second, if I only ever do the second, after some time, that flippancy will have an effect on me as the speaker as well. 

In either case, she can hear what I'm saying, but the effect on both of us is different depending on the scenario, even if the words are the same.  Our hearts are impacted by things like this.  And since God made us in this fashion that we are impacted by such things, it makes sense to work with what he has given us.

Again, I don't disagree.  God, however, knows our hearts wherever and however we are, far more than we might ever do.  Also, if I approach God in prayer with the same mind-set and attitude and heart facing south as I might facing east (for which there might be very good reasons), that's a little different than telling Him (or my wife  :grin:) that I love Him with a flippant tone as opposed to a quite serious tone.  The difference, methinks, is what I wrote in the second sentence above--He knows our hearts whereas my wife may not, certainly not in the same way or to the same depth and degree that God does.  So, while it might be a deal-breaker with humans, maybe not so much with God, if you know what I mean.
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#19
I think that's an interesting point that God knows our hearts. 

That being the case, why do we need to say anything at all regardless of the direction we decide to face when we do so? 

Maybe the Quakers are on to something -- we should sit around in a circle and say nothing at all!

I would surmise there is something about modernity that is making us question the sorts of realities that were not heretofore questioned.  I don't know whether that is hubris or psychology or something else.  But, once we start to ask questions about which way we face, if we conclude that that doesn't matter, aren't we always going to conclude that none of this stuff really matters? 
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#20
(07-21-2016, 01:39 PM)ermy_law Wrote: I think that's an interesting point that God knows our hearts. 

That being the case, why do we need to say anything at all regardless of the direction we decide to face when we do so? 

Maybe the Quakers are on to something -- we should sit around in a circle and say nothing at all!

I would surmise there is something about modernity that is making us question the sorts of realities that were not heretofore questioned.  I don't know whether that is hubris or psychology or something else.  But, once we start to ask questions about which way we face, if we conclude that that doesn't matter, aren't we always going to conclude that none of this stuff really matters?

Well...I guess we *don't*  NEED to "say" anything at all....But remember, prayer is for us, not for God, because He does know our hearts, our needs, our desires, long before we may even be consciously aware of them.  However, if we want a relationship with Him, this stuff, does matter, at least to some degree.  Now, to get rigidly fixated on "we MUST do it this way or that way or the other way" (i.e. we MUST face east while *standing* at prayer, etc.) is the kind of legalistic nonsense (again, just my not-so-humble opinion) that may, in fact, get in the way of our relationship with Him.  The externals are important but they're not the be-all and end-all.  After all, Jews, especially Orthodox Jews, place great import on them but they don't necessarily bring them closer to God.  While it may be "tradition" (as opposed to "Tradition") that we face east during prayer, especially liturgical prayer, just the fact of doing so really doesn't bring us closer to Him or, for that matter, take us further away from Him.
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