Some Changes in Canon Law
#1
With a motu proprio issued on September 15, Pope Francis has amended the canon laws of the Roman Catholic Church to bring them into harmony with the canon law of the Eastern Catholic churches.




The changes in canon law, the result of 15 years of consultations, are designed to eliminate conflicts between the sacramental practices of the Latin and Eastern churches. Vatican officials explained that the changes are necessary because of the increasing number of cases in which Catholics who are members of the Eastern churches live in areas where the Latin rite predominates. The changes also reflect the close relationship between the Eastern Catholic churches and their Orthodox counterparts.

Among the changes that the Pope approved for the Code of Canon Law in the Latin Church are:

- Latin-rite deacons cannot preside at a marriage in which one partner is a member of an Eastern Church, since the Eastern churches require the blessing of a priest;

- At the time of marriage, a Latin-rite Catholic can choose to become a member of the spouse's Eastern Catholic Church-- but can return to the Latin Church when the marriage ends.

- When children are born into a marriage between Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholics, the couple may choose to register the children in either rite; if there is a disagreement, the father's wish prevails. The children are also free to choose their own rite on reaching maturity.

- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite.

- If Eastern-rite Catholics are baptized in a Latin-rite church, their baptismal records should reflect their membership in the Eastern Church.

- Latin-rite Catholic bishops may give their priests the authority to solemnize the marriages of Orthodox couples, if the couples "spontaneously request it"-- presumably in cases in which Orthodox priests are not available.

- Latin-rite priests may baptize children of Orthodox parents-- again, when Orthodox priests are not available-- with the understanding that the baptismal records will be recorded in the Orthodox parishes to which the children would be affiliated.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/head...ryid=29354
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#2
Am I misunderstanding something here?

"- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite."

I thought we could do that anyway.
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#3
(09-15-2016, 11:56 PM)Poche Wrote: With a motu proprio issued on September 15, Pope Francis has amended the canon laws of the Roman Catholic Church to bring them into harmony with the canon law of the Eastern Catholic churches.




The changes in canon law, the result of 15 years of consultations, are designed to eliminate conflicts between the sacramental practices of the Latin and Eastern churches. Vatican officials explained that the changes are necessary because of the increasing number of cases in which Catholics who are members of the Eastern churches live in areas where the Latin rite predominates. The changes also reflect the close relationship between the Eastern Catholic churches and their Orthodox counterparts.

Among the changes that the Pope approved for the Code of Canon Law in the Latin Church are:

- Latin-rite deacons cannot preside at a marriage in which one partner is a member of an Eastern Church, since the Eastern churches require the blessing of a priest;

- At the time of marriage, a Latin-rite Catholic can choose to become a member of the spouse's Eastern Catholic Church-- but can return to the Latin Church when the marriage ends.

- When children are born into a marriage between Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholics, the couple may choose to register the children in either rite; if there is a disagreement, the father's wish prevails. The children are also free to choose their own rite on reaching maturity.

- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite.

- If Eastern-rite Catholics are baptized in a Latin-rite church, their baptismal records should reflect their membership in the Eastern Church.

- Latin-rite Catholic bishops may give their priests the authority to solemnize the marriages of Orthodox couples, if the couples "spontaneously request it"-- presumably in cases in which Orthodox priests are not available.

- Latin-rite priests may baptize children of Orthodox parents-- again, when Orthodox priests are not available-- with the understanding that the baptismal records will be recorded in the Orthodox parishes to which the children would be affiliated.

The one I bolded is the most bizarre.  Traditionally (and as convincingly argued by Father Peter Alban Heers in his erudite book on Vatican II and ecclesiology) Orthodox do not recognize Catholic priests as real priests or Catholic baptism as real baptism. It's both offensive to Roman Catholics and Orthodox to allow for such a bizarre practice as a Catholic priest to baptize a child  fully knowing he will be raised as an Orthodox.

It's offensive to more traditional minded Catholics because, well, why should a Catholic priest baptize a baby for a Church that is not Catholic nor in communion with the Catholic Church? It's offensive to Orthodox because it does not respect the very clear cut theology of Orthodoxy on baptism outside the Church.

The only way this makes sense is if Rome is trying to insinuate that somehow the schism is over and Orthodox and Catholics are really members of the same Church.

http://www.catholic culture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=29354
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#4
(09-16-2016, 12:38 AM)In His Love Wrote: Am I misunderstanding something here?

"- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite."

I thought we could do that anyway.

You're right, we could and we can.  Nothing new about that one. :eyeroll:  (Maybe the pope was reiterating it for emphasis or for those who were unaware of that.  Who knows...?)
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#5
(09-16-2016, 01:05 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 12:38 AM)In His Love Wrote: Am I misunderstanding something here?

"- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite."

I thought we could do that anyway.

You're right, we could and we can.  Nothing new about that one. :eyeroll:  (Maybe the pope was reiterating it for emphasis or for those who were unaware of that.  Who knows...?)

too me it sounds like sacraments of initiation.
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#6
Any Catholic of whatever Rite can receive sacraments in whatever Rite. The issue I have is this business of allowing Catholic priests to baptize Orthodox babies for the Orthodox Church. That is ridiculous!

Not only is it a perfectly acceptable theological opinion amongst Orthodox that Catholics have no priests,no grace and no sacraments, on the Catholic side it implicitly denies that Rome and Byzantium are separated and fosters indifferentism. Most Orthodox and most conservative Catholics will see this as absurd and ridiculous.

This is Rome trying to whitewash the real differences between itself and the Orthodox,differences no devout Catholic or devout Orthodox can or should sweep under the rug in the name of ecumenism.
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#7
(09-16-2016, 01:29 PM)Zea mays Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 01:05 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 12:38 AM)In His Love Wrote: Am I misunderstanding something here?

"- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite."

I thought we could do that anyway.

You're right, we could and we can.  Nothing new about that one. :eyeroll:  (Maybe the pope was reiterating it for emphasis or for those who were unaware of that.  Who knows...?)

too me it sounds like sacraments of initiation.

I interpret it that way too.

(09-16-2016, 02:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Any Catholic of whatever Rite can receive sacraments in whatever Rite. The issue I have is this business of allowing Catholic priests to baptize Orthodox babies for the Orthodox Church. That is ridiculous!

Not only is it a perfectly acceptable theological opinion amongst Orthodox that Catholics have no priests,no grace and no sacraments, on the Catholic side it implicitly denies that Rome and Byzantium are separated and fosters indifferentism. Most Orthodox and most conservative Catholics will see this as absurd and ridiculous.

This is Rome trying to whitewash the real differences between itself and the Orthodox,differences no devout Catholic or devout Orthodox can or should sweep under the rug in the name of ecumenism.

Maybe this trying to address an issue in regions where there are many more Eastern Catholics and Orthodox (such as Europe/Asia)? I would rather see us make overtures to the Orthodox than the happy-clappy form of Protestants.

We have a handful of Orthodox in these parts, and no regular Orthodox church. The priest is by only a few times of a year, and from what I gather it's sporadic at best. The rest of the time, they will sometimes randomly show up at our Latin-rite parish (and probably sometimes at the local Ukrainian-rite one too). I would rather see us baptizing those babies, even if we don't "keep" them, instead of waiting a long time (or having to travel a long distance) to get them done and risking their immortal souls.
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#8
(09-16-2016, 03:59 PM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 01:29 PM)Zea mays Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 01:05 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 12:38 AM)In His Love Wrote: Am I misunderstanding something here?

"- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite."

I thought we could do that anyway.

You're right, we could and we can.  Nothing new about that one. :eyeroll:  (Maybe the pope was reiterating it for emphasis or for those who were unaware of that.  Who knows...?)

too me it sounds like sacraments of initiation.

I interpret it that way too.

(09-16-2016, 02:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Any Catholic of whatever Rite can receive sacraments in whatever Rite. The issue I have is this business of allowing Catholic priests to baptize Orthodox babies for the Orthodox Church. That is ridiculous!

Not only is it a perfectly acceptable theological opinion amongst Orthodox that Catholics have no priests,no grace and no sacraments, on the Catholic side it implicitly denies that Rome and Byzantium are separated and fosters indifferentism. Most Orthodox and most conservative Catholics will see this as absurd and ridiculous.

This is Rome trying to whitewash the real differences between itself and the Orthodox,differences no devout Catholic or devout Orthodox can or should sweep under the rug in the name of ecumenism.

Maybe this trying to address an issue in regions where there are many more Eastern Catholics and Orthodox (such as Europe/Asia)? I would rather see us make overtures to the Orthodox than the happy-clappy form of Protestants.

We have a handful of Orthodox in these parts, and no regular Orthodox church. The priest is by only a few times of a year, and from what I gather it's sporadic at best. The rest of the time, they will sometimes randomly show up at our Latin-rite parish (and probably sometimes at the local Ukrainian-rite one too). I would rather see us baptizing those babies, even if we don't "keep" them, instead of waiting a long time (or having to travel a long distance) to get them done and risking their immortal souls.

No doubt there are circumstances where this practice has some possible justification,but at least officially the Orthodox are allowed to be of the opinion that Catholics have no grace and no priesthood at all.  Depending on the jurisdiction or parish that child would be "rebaptized" eventually by Orthodox anyway.

The rationale for this is laid out nicely in Father Peter Alban Heers book.  In essence how can,say, a non member of a club initiate someone into a club they don't belong to? For many Orthodox it's nonsensical to say like Catholics that even atheists can baptize. You can't give what you don't have.

Personally I'm glad Rome actually teaches that the Orthodox have grace and true sacraments, I think it better reflects reality than the very rigid, strict view of some Orthodox,but I still don't think we can sweep under the rug the very real ecclesial differences that divide us.

Do you really have Orthodox attending modern Latin Rite parishes? That's interesting.
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#9
(09-16-2016, 05:51 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 03:59 PM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 01:29 PM)Zea mays Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 01:05 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 12:38 AM)In His Love Wrote: Am I misunderstanding something here?

"- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite."

I thought we could do that anyway.

You're right, we could and we can.  Nothing new about that one. :eyeroll:  (Maybe the pope was reiterating it for emphasis or for those who were unaware of that.  Who knows...?)

too me it sounds like sacraments of initiation.

I interpret it that way too.

(09-16-2016, 02:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Any Catholic of whatever Rite can receive sacraments in whatever Rite. The issue I have is this business of allowing Catholic priests to baptize Orthodox babies for the Orthodox Church. That is ridiculous!

Not only is it a perfectly acceptable theological opinion amongst Orthodox that Catholics have no priests,no grace and no sacraments, on the Catholic side it implicitly denies that Rome and Byzantium are separated and fosters indifferentism. Most Orthodox and most conservative Catholics will see this as absurd and ridiculous.

This is Rome trying to whitewash the real differences between itself and the Orthodox,differences no devout Catholic or devout Orthodox can or should sweep under the rug in the name of ecumenism.

Maybe this trying to address an issue in regions where there are many more Eastern Catholics and Orthodox (such as Europe/Asia)? I would rather see us make overtures to the Orthodox than the happy-clappy form of Protestants.

We have a handful of Orthodox in these parts, and no regular Orthodox church. The priest is by only a few times of a year, and from what I gather it's sporadic at best. The rest of the time, they will sometimes randomly show up at our Latin-rite parish (and probably sometimes at the local Ukrainian-rite one too). I would rather see us baptizing those babies, even if we don't "keep" them, instead of waiting a long time (or having to travel a long distance) to get them done and risking their immortal souls.

No doubt there are circumstances where this practice has some possible justification,but at least officially the Orthodox are allowed to be of the opinion that Catholics have no grace and no priesthood at all.  Depending on the jurisdiction or parish that child would be "rebaptized" eventually by Orthodox anyway.

The rationale for this is laid out nicely in Father Peter Alban Heers book.  In essence how can,say, a non member of a club initiate someone into a club they don't belong to? For many Orthodox it's nonsensical to say like Catholics that even atheists can baptize. You can't give what you don't have.

Personally I'm glad Rome actually teaches that the Orthodox have grace and true sacraments, I think it better reflects reality than the very rigid, strict view of some Orthodox,but I still don't think we can sweep under the rug the very real ecclesial differences that divide us.

Do you really have Orthodox attending modern Latin Rite parishes? That's interesting.

Just for the record, FB (and you probably know this anyway  :) ), and for greater clarity, there ARE major Orthodox jurisdictions, at least in this country, that do accept Catholic and Protestant (as long as it is done "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", and with water) baptism and that do consider that the Catholic Church has grace and true sacraments.  I speak specifically of the OCA and the Antiochians, both of which I have experience with.

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#10
(09-17-2016, 01:47 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 05:51 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 03:59 PM)PrairieMom Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 01:29 PM)Zea mays Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 01:05 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(09-16-2016, 12:38 AM)In His Love Wrote: Am I misunderstanding something here?

"- Catholics of one rite may receive the sacraments in another Catholic Church; by doing so they do not become formal members of the other rite."

I thought we could do that anyway.

You're right, we could and we can.  Nothing new about that one. :eyeroll:  (Maybe the pope was reiterating it for emphasis or for those who were unaware of that.  Who knows...?)

too me it sounds like sacraments of initiation.

I interpret it that way too.

(09-16-2016, 02:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Any Catholic of whatever Rite can receive sacraments in whatever Rite. The issue I have is this business of allowing Catholic priests to baptize Orthodox babies for the Orthodox Church. That is ridiculous!

Not only is it a perfectly acceptable theological opinion amongst Orthodox that Catholics have no priests,no grace and no sacraments, on the Catholic side it implicitly denies that Rome and Byzantium are separated and fosters indifferentism. Most Orthodox and most conservative Catholics will see this as absurd and ridiculous.

This is Rome trying to whitewash the real differences between itself and the Orthodox,differences no devout Catholic or devout Orthodox can or should sweep under the rug in the name of ecumenism.

Maybe this trying to address an issue in regions where there are many more Eastern Catholics and Orthodox (such as Europe/Asia)? I would rather see us make overtures to the Orthodox than the happy-clappy form of Protestants.

We have a handful of Orthodox in these parts, and no regular Orthodox church. The priest is by only a few times of a year, and from what I gather it's sporadic at best. The rest of the time, they will sometimes randomly show up at our Latin-rite parish (and probably sometimes at the local Ukrainian-rite one too). I would rather see us baptizing those babies, even if we don't "keep" them, instead of waiting a long time (or having to travel a long distance) to get them done and risking their immortal souls.

No doubt there are circumstances where this practice has some possible justification,but at least officially the Orthodox are allowed to be of the opinion that Catholics have no grace and no priesthood at all.  Depending on the jurisdiction or parish that child would be "rebaptized" eventually by Orthodox anyway.

The rationale for this is laid out nicely in Father Peter Alban Heers book.  In essence how can,say, a non member of a club initiate someone into a club they don't belong to? For many Orthodox it's nonsensical to say like Catholics that even atheists can baptize. You can't give what you don't have.

Personally I'm glad Rome actually teaches that the Orthodox have grace and true sacraments, I think it better reflects reality than the very rigid, strict view of some Orthodox,but I still don't think we can sweep under the rug the very real ecclesial differences that divide us.

Do you really have Orthodox attending modern Latin Rite parishes? That's interesting.

Just for the record, FB (and you probably know this anyway  :) ), and for greater clarity, there ARE major Orthodox jurisdictions, at least in this country, that do accept Catholic and Protestant (as long as it is done "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", and with water) baptism and that do consider that the Catholic Church has grace and true sacraments.  I speak specifically of the OCA and the Antiochians, both of which I have experience with.

The Greek Orthodox do as well; the Metropolia of Denver has guidelines on what groups' baptisms are acceptable on their website. It is considered an act of oikonomia to accept heterodox baptism. Russians traditionally receive Catholic converts by a renunciation of error and Chrismation; Catholic baptisms are considered "true," but only grace-filled upon reception into the Orthodox Church. The view that ALL non-Orthodox sacraments are without grace seems to be a bit of an extreme position, especially with respect to Baptism. It's a more common view with the other mysteries.
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