Pope Francis stacks deck at Congregation of Divine Worship, a massacre
#11
(10-28-2016, 10:35 PM)Uxi Wrote: The devil would like nothing more than for trads to go into schism over this.  Keep the faith and resist whenever discouraged.  Popes come and go...  At worst, Francis is another Alexander VI or Julius II.  Take heart... it means we should have another St. Pius V on the way sooner or later.

I don't know, I think at worst Francis is considerably worse than Alexander VI or Julius II, or any of the other papal malefactors. The vast majority of "bad popes" did not say or do anything to undermine the Faith; Francis makes that a near-daily exercise.
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#12

                                                                              We're not leaving the Church ! The Church's leadership at the highest level is leaving us, and that should be even more clear after the upcoming celebration of Luther's schism.
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#13
(10-29-2016, 08:41 AM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(10-28-2016, 10:35 PM)Uxi Wrote: The devil would like nothing more than for trads to go into schism over this.  Keep the faith and resist whenever discouraged.  Popes come and go...  At worst, Francis is another Alexander VI or Julius II.  Take heart... it means we should have another St. Pius V on the way sooner or later.

I don't know, I think at worst Francis is considerably worse than Alexander VI or Julius II, or any of the other papal malefactors. The vast majority of "bad popes" did not say or do anything to undermine the Faith; Francis makes that a near-daily exercise.

No kidding.

Francis is way worse than Alexander VI or Julius II ever could have alleged to be. It's not even close.

  I thought everyone knew by now that personal moral failings, while scandalous, are not even in the same realm of soul damage done by a pope or purported pope who eviscerates orthodoxy and sets up in Authority those who are seriously heretics and do everything they can to undermine Sacred Tradition,  including Francis himself. 

For God's sake, the man is an Anti-Apostle who condemns the Church's mission to convert non-Catholics, tells Protestants not (!)to convert thereby ensuring their damnation, praises Luther, worships with Jews and Muslims, tangos on the altar, facilitates Eucharistic sacrilege, believes in the Jehovah's witness doctrine of "soul annihilation", trashes pious Catholics, undermines Doctrine at every turn and instills doubt in the faithful's minds., etc etc..  He's not confirming the sheep.  He's scattering them. 

The damage he is doing (as if the past conciliar popes had not done enough) is incalculable and totally demoralizing. 

That fact that everyone is not shocked and cannot see the immensity of this is a frightening indication of how accustomed and desensitized to apostasy people have become.
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#14
(10-29-2016, 09:23 AM)BC Wrote: I thought everyone knew by now that personal moral failings, while scandalous, are not even in the same realm of soul damage done by a pope or purported pope who eviscerates orthodoxy and sets up in Authority those who are seriously heretics and do everything they can to undermine Sacred Tradition,  including Francis himself. 

Exactly. A pope keeping mistresses or having sex parties in the Vatican is certainly scandalous, and such actions could undermine an individual's faith, but ultimately they just reveal the pope to be a sinner, perhaps a bit of an egregious one, but nevertheless a sinner like us all. But discouraging people from becoming Catholic, giving joint blessings with invalidly-ordained Anglican clergy, praising Martin Luther (MARTIN LUTHER), celebrating the Reformation while having to be badgered into saying Mass for the Swedish Catholics, at the very best undermining the doctrine of the indissolubility of marriage, etc., etc., especially in a historical moment of papal maximalism, undermines the Catholic Faith. And the obvious makeover at the CDW just confirms we're in for more of the same.
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#15
(10-29-2016, 08:41 AM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(10-28-2016, 10:35 PM)Uxi Wrote: The devil would like nothing more than for trads to go into schism over this.  Keep the faith and resist whenever discouraged.  Popes come and go...  At worst, Francis is another Alexander VI or Julius II.  Take heart... it means we should have another St. Pius V on the way sooner or later.

I don't know, I think at worst Francis is considerably worse than Alexander VI or Julius II, or any of the other papal malefactors. The vast majority of "bad popes" did not say or do anything to undermine the Faith; Francis makes that a near-daily exercise.

Yet, going into schism does nothing to help that.  Pray for his conversion and offer reparation.  Few to no laity have any influence on bishops or cardinals or popes.  We're responsible for our own soul first, then those we're responsible for (parents for children, etc).  Going into schism or embracing sede heresy only heap ruin on our own souls as well as that of a bad pope, who will answer for it.

My initial reaction to the Cupich red hat announcement was not... charitable, either.  Enough so that I went to confession for the thoughts I had.  Then I read this:

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote: "Augustine says in his Rule: 'Show mercy not only to yourselves, but also to him who, being in the higher position among you, is therefore in the greater danger'."

In his biography of St. Robert Bellarmine, Fr. James Brodrick paraphrased him:  "If the Pope took care to appoint the right kind of bishops, then he would be fulfilling his primary duty, but if he chose unfit candidates or if he neglected to keep them up to the mark, then God would demand at his hands the souls that might be lost through his carelessness."

St. Robert Bellarmine said: "This consideration frightens me so much that there is no one in the world that I pity more than the Pope ...."

"What St. John Chrysostom wrote so feelingly about bishops, namely that only a few of them would be saved because of the extreme difficulty of giving a good account of the souls committed to their care, certainly applies much more to the occupants of St. Peter's throne."

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#16
(10-29-2016, 12:01 PM)Uxi Wrote: Yet, going into schism does nothing to help that.

I agree with this part. If you believe the Catholic Faith and the necessity of the papacy, then schism is obviously not the answer. The only logical reason to leave is if you don't believe Catholic doctrine; anything else is probably an emotional reaction.
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#17
(10-29-2016, 03:17 PM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(10-29-2016, 12:01 PM)Uxi Wrote: Yet, going into schism does nothing to help that.

I agree with this part. If you believe the Catholic Faith and the necessity of the papacy, then schism is obviously not the answer. The only logical reason to leave is if you don't believe Catholic doctrine; anything else is probably an emotional reaction.

I've been on the fence about the papacy as it has come to be for years now, and this latest doesn't really help. Honestly the amount of tinkering and meddling and downright damage done to the externals of the Church at the hands of the last 100 years or so of popes does nothing to shore up the idea of the papacy as some utterly necessary and infallible "rock" of the Faith. If anything since Vatican I we have seen the pope grow a God complex and orchestrate innovation after innovation seemingly at whim.

This latest overhaul at the hands of Francis shows to me that the papacy is out of control and capable of anything.

The popes have shown they can and will do whatever they want,especially since Vatican I. The next pope could roll back the clock but the one after that could be another Francis. There's no firm guidance in the papacy as its come to be. For good or for ill Roman Catholicism revolves around the person of the pope.

I definitely believe that Peter had some kind of primacy,but I'm agnostic on just what that meant, and leaning more towards the Orthodox view.

Whatever the case may be my prayers are with all you guys at Fisheaters even if I'm basically Orthodox these days.  How I wish there was a degree of sanity within the Roman Church.
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#18
FB, I recommend Vox's page on the Primacy of Peter, from the words of the Early Church Fathers. St. Cyprian in particular was quite straightforward:

"[After quoting Matthew 16:18f; John 21:15ff]...On him [Peter] He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church [first edition] 4, c. AD 251), emphasis mine
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#19
(10-30-2016, 02:27 AM)In His Love Wrote: FB, I recommend Vox's page on the Primacy of Peter, from the words of the Early Church Fathers. St. Cyprian in particular was quite straightforward:

"[After quoting Matthew 16:18f; John 21:15ff]...On him [Peter] He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church [first edition] 4, c. AD 251), emphasis mine
I was Orthodox on the last step of my long journey to Catholicism, and it was reading the Fathers among other lesser things, that brought me into unity with Rome. To use the words of an arch-heresiarch, 'Here I stand! I can do no other'!
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#20
St. Robert Bellarmine: “A Pope who is a manifest heretic automatically ceases to be a Pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.” -

St. Alphonsus Liguori: “If ever a Pope, as a private person, should fall into heresy, he should at once fall from the Pontificate. If, however, God were to permit a pope to become a notorious and contumacious heretic, he would by such fact cease to be pope, and the apostolic chair would be vacant.”

Archbishop Fulton Sheen (1895-1979)
"He [Satan] will set up a counter church which will be the ape of the Church, because he, the Devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ. . . .But the twentieth century will join the counter church because it claims to be infallible when its visible head speaks ex cathedra." (Fulton J. Sheen, Communism and the Conscience of the West, Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1948, pp. 24-25)

Wernz-Vidal — Canon Law, 1943
“Through notorious and openly divulged heresy, the Roman Pontiff, should he fall into heresy, by that very fact (ipso facto) is deemed to be deprived of the power of jurisdiction even before any declaratory judgment by the Church... A Pope who falls into public heresy would cease ipso facto to be a member of the Church; therefore, he would also cease to be head of the Church.” And also: “A doubtful pope is no pope.”

                                                                                      Are we there yet ? Maybe not, but we're rapidly heading in that direction.
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