My Soliloquies on the kinds of torments of unbaptized infants.
#41
(03-16-2017, 08:59 PM)Gregory I Wrote:
(03-16-2017, 07:39 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: What was lost after Eden was more than just "natural" happiness; it was supernatural happiness, infused grace. Unbaptized babies, normatively anyway, don't have infused grace. Hence they won't experience any Eden-like scenario in Limbo as Adam and Eve experienced Eden. But natural happiness is a different thing, having nothing to do with infused grace.

Well I can agree, but that's not the entire point. Really, are they sheep or goats? Goats. Are they elect or reprobate? Reprobate. Are they in the book of life, or not? Not. So their eternal destiny must be bound up with the destiny of all those others who will be cast into the lake of fire.  Just as the destiny of all those other infants of the Old Testament were bound up with those other actual sinners.

Moreover, in the Law of Moses, those things that are mortal sins are punished with physical death. For example those caught in adultery were stoned. Those children who were rebellious were put to death outside the camp.

God was teaching Israel about the eternal penalty of sin through earthly penalties. Similarly in his OWN just decrees he called for the entire extermination of entire peoples to show forth all of our implication in the sin of Adam. And he punished all with the same punishment.  He therefore images the last judgment where the great and small stand before the just judge. And all the goats, great and small are punished together, and all the just, great and small, are rewarded together. It's typology really.

Nice, all this writing off of the probability of Limbo as if its non-existence is dogma when it most certainly isn't (quite the opposite), pushing false dichotomies, assuming you know how many chapters the Book of Life has, etc..

Goats or sheep? They're human beings who aren't infused with supernatural grace, at least not by normative means. Metaphors are nice and helpful, but very limited.

God didn't punish people to teach about original sin. Sodom and Gomorrah residents were guilty of actual sin. So were the Canaanites. Etc.

Not sure what the law of Moses has to do with anything. And we don't operate under it anyway.

Look, if you don't want to believe that those who are innocent of actual sin but are not infused with sanctifying grace burn in Hell forever, listen to what the Church teaches, accept it, and take solace in it. That's what Catholics do. But if you do want to believe that, then you're sick.
 
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#42
(03-16-2017, 10:13 PM)In His Love Wrote: Loss of the Beatific Vision, which applies to those in Limbo, is a very profound punishment.

We aren't talking about people who never saw a priest for Baptism because they railed against Our Lord or were too lukewarm to see its necessity. We're talking about tiny babies who were dismembered or experienced one of the other gruesome forms of abortion. We're talking about the miscarried, the stillborn, those for whom Baptism would have been difficult or impossible to provide outside of divine intervention.

"There are more things in Heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet

There is no such things as impossibility of baptism. All the elect who are saved are saved simply because God wills it, and all those who are lost are so because they deserve it. This is merely sentimental theology. God does not serve the goddess "Fortune" or Chance. If there infants who are not saved, he did not grant them the grace to be saved, let's be clear on that. Nothing is outside his care, will and providence.
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#43
(03-16-2017, 11:18 PM)Gregory I Wrote:
(03-16-2017, 10:13 PM)In His Love Wrote: Loss of the Beatific Vision, which applies to those in Limbo, is a very profound punishment.

We aren't talking about people who never saw a priest for Baptism because they railed against Our Lord or were too lukewarm to see its necessity. We're talking about tiny babies who were dismembered or experienced one of the other gruesome forms of abortion. We're talking about the miscarried, the stillborn, those for whom Baptism would have been difficult or impossible to provide outside of divine intervention.

"There are more things in Heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet

There is no such things as impossibility of baptism. All the elect who are saved are saved simply because God wills it, and all those who are lost are so because they deserve it. This is merely sentimental theology. God does not serve the goddess "Fortune" or Chance. If there infants who are not saved, he did not grant them the grace to be saved, let's be clear on that. Nothing is outside his care, will and providence.
Do you think St. Thomas Aquinas was sentimental when he said these souls receive perfect natural happiness? You reject his view of Limbo because, by your own admission, you do not understand it, but then you make a sweeping generalization about all these babies. God has a direct will and a permissive will. It isn't the direct will of God for a woman to allow a doctor to butcher her child in the womb; He permits it for a time and eventually, if unrepented, there is a punishment for that. But to say that that precious child who never had a chance at life on earth is now suffering some degree of torment in addition to the loss of the Beatific Vision just doesn't line up with the theologians, including the Angelic Doctor whom the Popes gave such high praise to.

In my personal opinion, you have a very narrow view of God.
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#44
(03-16-2017, 11:25 PM)In His Love Wrote:
(03-16-2017, 11:18 PM)Gregory I Wrote:
(03-16-2017, 10:13 PM)In His Love Wrote: Loss of the Beatific Vision, which applies to those in Limbo, is a very profound punishment.

We aren't talking about people who never saw a priest for Baptism because they railed against Our Lord or were too lukewarm to see its necessity. We're talking about tiny babies who were dismembered or experienced one of the other gruesome forms of abortion. We're talking about the miscarried, the stillborn, those for whom Baptism would have been difficult or impossible to provide outside of divine intervention.

"There are more things in Heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet

There is no such things as impossibility of baptism. All the elect who are saved are saved simply because God wills it, and all those who are lost are so because they deserve it. This is merely sentimental theology. God does not serve the goddess "Fortune" or Chance. If there infants who are not saved, he did not grant them the grace to be saved, let's be clear on that. Nothing is outside his care, will and providence.
Do you think St. Thomas Aquinas was sentimental when he said these souls receive perfect natural happiness? You reject his view of Limbo because, by your own admission, you do not understand it, but then you make a sweeping generalization about all these babies. God has a direct will and a permissive will. It isn't the direct will of God for a woman to allow a doctor to butcher her child in the womb; He permits it for a time and eventually, if unrepented, there is a punishment for that. But to say that that precious child who never had a chance at life on earth is now suffering some degree of torment in addition to the loss of the Beatific Vision just doesn't line up with the theologians, including the Angelic Doctor whom the Popes gave such high praise to.

In my personal opinion, you have a very narrow view of God.

Well yes because it is constrained by dogmas and the teachings of scripture. But I am not opposed to being wrong, but I also don't see how the fathers and doctors for 800 years after Augustine were all wrong. This is their teaching after all. Now, you admit they can be in error on this point for so long, but then who is to say St. Thomas did not err on this point? You point to the unanimity of the scholastics after Aquinas, I point to the Latin Fathers after Augustine.

But if we were to go by strict dogmatic statements and condemned propositions, this is what we could say positively for certain with dogmatic and doctrinal certitude-

The dogmas of the Church have clearly taught that infants inherit original sin. They have clearly taught that the punishment for original sin is death of the body and death of the soul. They have clearly taught that the whole man was changed for the worse, body and soul, in addition to his loss of the preternatural gifts of integrity and sanctifying grace. They have clearly taught that in such a state man is a slave of the devil, subject to the wrath of God, his enemy, and that God hates the original sin that dwells within them. They have clearly taught that the guilt of the original sin is in each man as his own and that it is punished eternally by a descent into hell.

The condemned propositions of the Church made outside of ecumenical councils have clearly taught that unbaptized infants will not go to a terrestrial paradise or the abode of their parents, Christian or Pagan. They have clearly taught that those infants who die in original sin descend to a place of guilt and punishment that is not a middle place between heaven and hell. They have clearly taught that it is not Pelagian to assign infants to a place of guilt and punishment that is without fire (Though it necessarily remains a place of guilt and punishment).

Every EVERY single statement has a corresponding dogma or magisterial decree, especially my favorite, the condemnation of the Armenian error that the souls of unbaptized children go to a terrestrial paradise.
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#45
(03-16-2017, 11:46 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Well yes because it is constrained by dogmas and the teachings of scripture. But I am not opposed to being wrong, but I also don't see how the fathers and doctors for 800 years after Augustine were all wrong. This is their teaching after all. Now, you admit they can be in error on this point for so long, but then who is to say St. Thomas did not err on this point? You point to the unanimity of the scholastics after Aquinas, I point to the Latin Fathers after Augustine.

And I pointed out St. Gregory of Nanzianzus, who preceded St. Augustine. St. Augustine started the idea you're pushing here. Before him, what the Scholastics taught was accepted. And that is what the Church accepts and teaches.

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#46
(03-16-2017, 11:51 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-16-2017, 11:46 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Well yes because it is constrained by dogmas and the teachings of scripture. But I am not opposed to being wrong, but I also don't see how the fathers and doctors for 800 years after Augustine were all wrong. This is their teaching after all. Now, you admit they can be in error on this point for so long, but then who is to say St. Thomas did not err on this point? You point to the unanimity of the scholastics after Aquinas, I point to the Latin Fathers after Augustine.

And I pointed out St. Gregory of Nanzianzus, who preceded St. Augustine. St. Augustine started the idea you're pushing here. Before him, what the Scholastics taught was accepted. And that is what the Church accepts and teaches.

No, it is the opinion of some of the scholastics, the CHURCH teaches unbaptized infants descend to hell to be punished for original sin alone, but that this punishment is unequal to those who die in mortal sin. The CHURCH teaches that they are in the Hell of the damned in a place of guilt and punishment. But it has not yet decided the nature of that punishment. Theologians can disagree.
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#47
I'm going to bow out of this debate. God is goodness Himself. The teaching of Limbo as a place of natural happiness points to that goodness. Yes, original sin is serious. Yes, it needs to be removed. No, that doesn't mean that unbaptized babies are being tormented forever because they were stillborn, miscarried, or aborted.
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#48
(03-16-2017, 11:57 PM)Gregory I Wrote: No, it is the opinion of some of the scholastics, the CHURCH teaches unbaptized infants descend to hell to be punished for original sin alone, but that this punishment is unequal to those who die in mortal sin. The CHURCH teaches that they are in the Hell of the damned in a place of guilt and punishment. But it has not yet decided the nature of that punishment. Theologians can disagree.

You might want to read the catechisms of the past however many hundred years. You'll find Limbo in them. Go to any village in Italy and ask an old Nonna woman what she was taught happens to unbaptized babies. She'll tell you what the CHURCH taught her before the Council.

People are not punished with "torments" for original sin alone. Sorry to disappoint you.  Hey, maybe you could call Hillary and get a hold of some little Haitian orphans you can stick pins into. You can even shove their feet into fire and hold 'em there til the flesh falls off. Maybe that'd help you get your ya-yas out or something.
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#49
(03-17-2017, 02:21 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-16-2017, 11:57 PM)Gregory I Wrote: No, it is the opinion of some of the scholastics, the CHURCH teaches unbaptized infants descend to hell to be punished for original sin alone, but that this punishment is unequal to those who die in mortal sin. The CHURCH teaches that they are in the Hell of the damned in a place of guilt and punishment. But it has not yet decided the nature of that punishment. Theologians can disagree.

You might want to read the catechisms of the past however many hundred years. You'll find Limbo in them. Go to any village in Italy and ask an old Nonna woman what she was taught happens to unbaptized babies. She'll tell you what the CHURCH taught her before the Council.

People are not punished with "torments" for original sin alone. Sorry to disappoint you.  Hey, maybe you could call Hillary and get a hold of some little Haitian orphans you can stick pins into. You can even shove their feet into fire and hold 'em there til the flesh falls off. Maybe that'd help you get your ya-yas out or something.

2nd Council of Lyons, Ecumenical:

Quote:The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments. The same most holy Roman Church firmly believes and firmly declares that nevertheless on the day of judgment "all" men will be brought together with their bodies "before the tribunal of Christ" "to render an account" of their own deeds [Rom. 14:10 ]

Anything else?

Oh, here: 

Quote:The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,--false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.

And here:

Quote:Errors of the Armenians-

Also that the Armenians say and hold that the personal sin of our first parents themselves was so serious that all of their children propagated from their seed up to the passion of Christ have been deservedly condemned for the aforesaid personal sin, and they have been thrust into hell after death, not because they themselves have contracted some original sin from Adam, since they say that children have no original sin at all, neither before the passion of Christ nor after, but that the aforementioned condemnation before the passion of Christ followed them by reason of the gravity of the personal sin which Adam and Eve committed by transgressing the divine precept which had been given to them; but after the passion of our Lord, by which the sin of our first parents was erased, the children who are born from the sons of Adam are not subject to this condemnation, nor are they to be thrust into hell by reason of the aforesaid sin, because Christ erased entirely the sin of our first parents in His passion. -ERROR-


Also the Armenians say that the souls of children who are born from Christian parents after the passion of Christ, if they die before they are baptized, go to a terrestrial Paradise in which Adam was before sin; but the souls of children who are born after the passion of Christ from non-Christian parents and who die without baptism go to the place where the souls of their parents are.
-ERROR
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#50

Yawn. Find any Haitian orphans yet?
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