What's the big deal with the Jews
#1
It seems like a substantial number of people here have a problem/strong opinions with Jews, or Zionism, or Israel, or something to that effect?  Why?  Just asking, I am keeping an open mind.
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#2
(04-07-2017, 12:21 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: It seems like a substantial number of people here have a problem/strong opinions with Jews, or Zionism, or Israel, or something to that effect?  Why?  Just asking, I am keeping an open mind.

Well there are a lot of facets to that issue.  Can you narrow your question in regards to something specific?
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#3
Well, for instance, why is the nation state of Israel bad, especially for Catholics?  Also, why are the Jews provoking wars?  I mean, I don't support Israel, but I have never given it any thought as to why it is bad (except for when those loons who tell me if I don't support Israel, God will send me to Hell).  And this doesn't have anything to do with the ecumenical nonsense about how they are our sister faith, and we come from them, we worship the same G*d etc. etc. etc.

And in light of recent events, why would the Zionists want to provoke a war in the Middle East? 
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#4
(04-07-2017, 12:21 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: It seems like a substantial number of people here have a problem/strong opinions with Jews, or Zionism, or Israel, or something to that effect?  Why?  Just asking, I am keeping an open mind.

I think there is an over-influence of Zionism in the US, and I've seen people here express that.  The U.S. gives around ten million dollars a day to Israel in foreign aid.  I think this is partly due to the undue importance that Evangelical Christianity places on Israel.  I think it's also due to the influence of Zionists in the government.  I have respect for Israel and for the Israeli people, but I don't think they need that much of our money.  If they have extra money, I would much rather them give it to me.

There is also an over-influence of modern-day Judaism in the Church.  An example of this would be the removal of the Lamentations of Jeremias from the Novus Ordo Holy Week liturgies.
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#5
(04-07-2017, 12:21 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: It seems like a substantial number of people here have a problem/strong opinions with Jews, or Zionism, or Israel, or something to that effect?  Why?  Just asking, I am keeping an open mind.

(04-07-2017, 01:15 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: Well, for instance, why is the nation state of Israel bad, especially for Catholics?

It is not so much that it is bad for Catholics, although really the Holy Land should be in possession of Catholics and not a place to be spit on by Talmudists there.

http://religiondispatches.org/holy-spit-...hristians/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...anity.html

The Catholic Church is Israel, founded upon the New Covenant.  http://www.fisheaters.com/israelverses2.html

Only those who have accepted Jesus Christ, belong to Israel.

"And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. " Daniel 9:26

“Jesus saith to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes. Therefore I say to you (Jews), the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people yielding is fruits.” (Matt. 21:43)

Hebrews 10:9: “Then he says, ‘Behold, I come to do your will.’ He takes away the first [covenant] to establish the second [covenant]…”

"But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament, which is established on better promises. For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second. For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament: Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. " Heb 8:6-13

"Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law – namely, Christ – has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy…Have you not read…by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: ‘Behold, the days come,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…’” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch 11).

“The Lord made Cain a wanderer and fugitive over the earth, but set a mark upon him, lest anyone finding him might slay him. Thus the Jews, against whom the blood of Christ calls out, although they ought not be killed, nevertheless as wanderers they must remain upon the earth until their faces be filled with shame and they seek the name of Jesus Christ the Lord.”

— Pope Innocent III

“The Jews wander over the entire earth, their backs bent and their eyes cast downward, forever calling to our minds the curse they carry with them.”

-St. Augustine

“Yet surely Paul’s object everywhere is to annul this Law….And with much reason; for it was through a fear and a horror of this that the Jews obstinately opposed grace” (Homily on Romans, 6:12); “And so while no one annuls a man’s covenant, the covenant of God after four hundred and thirty years is annulled; for if not that covenant but another instead of it bestows what is promised, then is it set aside, which is most unreasonable” ( St. John Chrysostom: Homily on Galatians, Ch 3);

— St. Basil the Great

"And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area -- He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the house of Israel [30] -the Law and the Gospel were together in force; [31] but on the gibbet of his death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees, [32] fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, [33] establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. [34] "To such an extent, then," says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, "was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom." [35](Pope Pius XII,Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943.)

"Turn Thine eyes of mercy towards the children of the race, once Thy chosen people: of old they called down upon themselves the Blood of the Savior; may it now descend upon them a laver of redemption and of life." – Act of Consecration of the Human Race to the Sacred Heart of Jesus (Pope Pius XI)

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans for Divine punishment in rejecting Jesus Christ according to his own prophecy and the faithless Hebrews are to be scattered about in a Diaspora.  They have no right to that land anymore, as it was conditional upon them being faithful.  They were not. 

Deuteronomy 28:58...64
"If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book... the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone."

They have no Temple, Sacrifice, or priesthood, which has all been fulfilled in Jesus Christ and his Holy Church and priests.

The rogue state created in 1948 is just a bunch of Zionists calling themselves by that name and was not to be supported in their Zionist endeavors.

Protestant "Evangelicals" can't understand this because they have no real Faith and don't even understand the Scripture they claim to be true believers in. The same is true of course with Talmudists.

Pope Saint Pius X's in the audience he gave to the founder of international Zionism, Theodore Herzl, on January 25, 1904:

POPE: We are unable to favor this movement [of Zionism]. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem—but we could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.

HERZL: [The conflict between Rome and Jerusalem, represented by the one and the other of us, was once again under way. At the outset I tried to be conciliatory. I said my little piece. . . . It didn’t greatly impress him. Jerusalem was not to be placed in Jewish hands.] And its present status, Holy Father?

POPE: I know, it is disagreeable to see the Turks in possession of our Holy Places. We simply have to put up with it. But to sanction the Jewish wish to occupy these sites, that we cannot do.

HERZL: [I said that we based our movement solely on the sufferings of the Jews, and wished to put aside all religious issues].

POPE: Yes, but we, but I as the head of the Catholic Church, cannot do this. One of two things will likely happen. Either the Jews will retain their ancient faith and continue to await the Messiah whom we believe has already appeared—in which case they are denying the divinity of Jesus and we cannot assist them. Or else they will go there with no religion whatever, and then we can have nothing at all to do with them. The Jewish faith was the foundation of our own, but it has been superceded by the teachings of Christ, and we cannot admit that it still enjoys any validity. The Jews who should have been the first to acknowledge Jesus Christ have not done so to this day.

HERZL: [It was on the tip of my tongue to remark, “It happens in every family: no one believes in his own relative.” But, instead, I said:] Terror and persecution were not precisely the best means for converting the Jews. [His reply had an element of grandeur in its simplicity:]

POPE: Our Lord came without power. He came in peace. He persecuted no one. He was abandoned even by his apostles. It was only later that he attained stature. It took three centuries for the Church to evolve. The Jews therefore had plenty of time in which to accept his divinity without duress or pressure. But they chose not to do so, and they have not done it yet.

HERZL: But, Holy Father, the Jews are in a terrible plight. I do not know if Your Holiness is aware of the full extent of their tragedy. We need a land for these harried people.

POPE: Must it be Jerusalem?

HERZL: We are not asking for Jerusalem, but for Palestine—for only the secular land.

POPE: We cannot be in favor of it.

[Editor Lowenthal interjects here] Here unrelenting replacement theology is plainly upheld as the norm of the Roman Catholic Church. Further, this confession, along with the whole tone of the Pope in his meeting with Herzl, indicates the perpetuation of a doctrinal emphasis that has resulted in centuries of degrading behavior toward the Jews. However, this response has the “grandeur” of total avoidance of that which Herzl had intimated, namely that the abusive reputation of Roman Catholicism toward the Jews was unlikely to foster conversion. Further, if, “It took three centuries for the Church to evolve,” it was that very same period of time that it took for the Church to consolidate and launch its thrust of anti-Semitism through the following centuries.

HERZL: Does Your Holiness know the situation of the Jews?

POPE: Yes, from my days in Mantua, where there are Jews. I have always been in friendly relations with Jews. Only the other evening two Jews were here to see me. There are other bonds than those of religion: social intercourse, for example, and philanthropy. Such bonds we do not refuse to maintain with the Jews. Indeed we also pray for them, that their spirit see the light. This very day the Church is celebrating the feast of an unbeliever who became converted in a miraculous manner—on the road to Damascus. And so if you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with churches and priests to baptize all of you. (Marvin Lowenthal, The Diaries of Theodore Herzl.) http://www.christorchaos.com/Apologizing...mself.html

Civilta Cattolica, (Jesuit Roman Periodical), 1897 :

1827 years have passed since the prediction of Jesus of Nazareth was fulfilled ... that [after the destruction of Jerusalem] the Jews would be led away to be slaves among all the nations and that they would remain in the dispersion [diaspora, galut] until the end of the world." The Jews should not be permitted to return to Palestine with sovereignty: "According to the Sacred Scriptures, the Jewish people must always live dispersed and vagabondo [vagrant, wandering] among the other nations, so that they may render witness to Christ not only by the Scriptures ... but by their very existence...
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#6
(04-07-2017, 01:15 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: And in light of recent events, why would the Zionists want to provoke a war in the Middle East?

Why not, if other countries want to destroy yours, but you can get foreigners (Americans) to do all the killing and dying? None of the countries in the Middle East are much of a threat to the US, especially if we stop allowing so much immigration from them. There's no way Iran or Syria or Saudi Arabia or Iraq is going to invade the US, but there's a much bigger threat to Israel, as it's right next to all these countries. Why not use the support of Evangelical Christians to get another country to do your fighting for you? The real question is why the US continues to go along with it.

The other issue is that many of the liberal and globalist causes are disproportionally supported by Jews - particularly ones like George Soros. That doesn't mean all Jews, of course, but when these groups encourage, for example, Muslim immigration to Europe and multiculturalism, while Israel refuses to take any migrants and insists on preserving its Jewish culture, the hypocrisy is bothersome.
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#7
(04-07-2017, 01:15 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: Well, for instance, why is the nation state of Israel bad, especially for Catholics?  Also, why are the Jews provoking wars?  I mean, I don't support Israel, but I have never given it any thought as to why it is bad (except for when those loons who tell me if I don't support Israel, God will send me to Hell).  And this doesn't have anything to do with the ecumenical nonsense about how they are our sister faith, and we come from them, we worship the same G*d etc. etc. etc.

And in light of recent events, why would the Zionists want to provoke a war in the Middle East? 

Zionist "Israel" took the Palestine land by bloody force and terrorism in 1948 with the help of the U.S. and Britain.  They have killed a lot of Palestinians and pissed off a lot of Arabs and Muslims in the process, thereby precipitating a perpetual state of conflict.  They need to take out all of these surrounding enemies of theirs or at least get in puppet governments and leaders who will not be hostile to them.  This is what the Mossad does and and A.I.P.A.C and duped Protestant Evangelical voters gets the U.S. to fund all of this.  They have to trick Americans into supporting these endeavors through false flags and assisting Muslim terrorists to attack the West .  They have to provoke in order to create a non stop process of chaos that makes Israel's enemies now America's enemies, so that America will have no choice but to be involved and fight "Israel's" wars for Israel. 



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#8
Quote:POPE: Yes, but we, but I as the head of the Catholic Church, cannot do this. One of two things will likely happen. Either the Jews will retain their ancient faith and continue to await the Messiah whom we believe has already appeared—in which case they are denying the divinity of Jesus and we cannot assist them. Or else they will go there with no religion whatever, and then we can have nothing at all to do with them. The Jewish faith was the foundation of our own, but it has been superceded by the teachings of Christ, and we cannot admit that it still enjoys any validity. The Jews who should have been the first to acknowledge Jesus Christ have not done so to this day.

It has to be kept in mind as a primary point that modern Judaism -- post-Temple Judaism -- is a totally different religion from the Old Testament religion, the religion practiced by Jesus and His Family. This can't be stressed enough.

After the Temple fell, Jews who hadn't converted to Christianity were scattered in the diaspora. Their leaders (Pharisaic rabbis) convened a council (called Jabneh or Jamnia) to consolidate their power. OT Judaism was a priestly religion, but after the Temple fell as Christ predicted, there were no Jewish priests. The only priests were (and are) Christian priests. So rabbis grew in power, supplanting priestly authority, and post-Temple Judaism morphed from the OT religion -- a priestly religion that offered sacrifices -- into Pharisaic rabbinism. That morphed later into Talmudism after the mere "traditions of men" that Christ spoke against were codified into the Talmud.

The Talmud and other Jewish writings are explicitly anti-Christ -- a word being used here not just in some general sense, but in the very specific sense that they single out Jesus of Nazareth and His Mother for serious blasphemy and sacrilege (the only other religion that does that is Satanism). Even Islam, which gets Jesus wrong in huge and obvious ways, even denying the Crucifixion, honors Him as a Prophet).

Read these pages:

http://www.fisheaters.com/dispensationalism.html
http://www.fisheaters.com/endtimes.html
http://www.fisheaters.com/jcintro.html

In all this, know that true anti-semitism -- any ill will toward Jewish people because of their ethnicity -- is an evil, as is any form of racism. Any talk that doesn't distinguish between "Jews" and Jewish leaders, such as rabbis, AIPAC, the ADL, etc., is wrong. Many, many Jews have left the post-Temple Jewish religion behind, and have faced Historical realities (e.g., the role of usury,  the post-Temple Jewish religion's attitude toward Gentiles, etc. in Christian-Jewish relations, how Jews betrayed Spain by cooperating with Muslims to take over that country, etc.). Racism -- any idea that one group, by virtue of their genetics, skin color, etc. is ontologically superior or inferior to another, is more or less beloved by God, is due more or less charity than another, etc. -- has NO role in a Catholic's life. What is at issue are ideology and religion, not race.

Those latter things -- ideology and religion -- have to be talked about, most especially given how dispensationalism has taken over huge chunks of Christianity (at least in the U.S.), how AIPAC has far too much power over the American Congress, etc., but they must be spoken about with GREAT prudence, using a huge amount of care to avoid anti-semitism and always keeping in mind how most people are unaware of a lot of things regarding Christian-Jewish relations and freak out when hearing them, their minds automatically leaping to words like "antisemite!" or "Nazi!" when hearing any honest critique of the Jewish religion and Jewish history. I demand that sort of prudence here at the forum.

And we have to have a true love for the Jewish people, a true concern for their souls even as we defend ourselves, our History, and the Faith. If someone doesn't have true charity for the Jewish people, in spite of their blasphemy, errors, and history, it's better that they not discuss these things at all here.
 
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#9
Great post, Vox, but unfortunately the Council of Jamnia seems to have little historical basis. The great German-Jewish scholar Heinrich Graetz, one of the leading thinkers in the Wissenschaft des Judentums academic movement, raised the idea of the council as a conjecture, to explain the differences in Old Testament canon between Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity. But there is no evidence for such a council, so most modern scholars reject it.
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#10
Quote:It seems like a substantial number of people here have a problem/strong opinions with Jews, or Zionism, or Israel, or something to that effect?  Why?  Just asking, I am keeping an open mind.

You can mount a soapbox in Lyons, Paris, Munich, Brussels, Rome (!), Vienna--all the leading cities of what is now quaintly known as Christendom--and deny the Resurrection of Christ. You have free speech rights! Try mounting a soapbox in any of those cities and raise questions about the Sacred Six Million. See what happens.

The double standards are breathtaking. Yet most Christians don't seem to care.
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