What's the big deal with the Jews
#11
(04-08-2017, 05:52 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: In all this, know that true anti-semitism -- any ill will toward Jewish people because of their ethnicity -- is an evil, as is any form of racism. Any talk that doesn't distinguish between "Jews" and Jewish leaders, such as rabbis, AIPAC, the ADL, etc., is wrong. Many, many Jews have left the post-Temple Jewish religion behind, and have faced Historical realities (e.g., the role of usury,  the post-Temple Jewish religion's attitude toward Gentiles, etc. in Christian-Jewish relations, how Jews betrayed Spain by cooperating with Muslims to take over that country, etc.). Racism -- any idea that one group, by virtue of their genetics, skin color, etc. is ontologically superior or inferior to another, is more or less beloved by God, is due more or less charity than another, etc. -- has NO role in a Catholic's life. What is at issue are ideology and religion, not race.

And we have to have a true love for the Jewish people, a true concern for their souls even as we defend ourselves, our History, and the Faith.

I truly wish people adhered to such prudence. There is so much hatred against Jews for no good reason. People confuse facts and enter a slippery slope that leads to anti-Semitic statements. If someone points that out, they are accused of being heretics or worse.

I always find it so uncomfortable when Traditionalist friends crack jokes about Jews. Why make fun of them. Catholics shouldn't make fun of those who make mistakes or are in error :)
Reply
#12
(04-11-2017, 03:53 PM)Macarius Wrote: I truly wish people adhered to such prudence. There is so much hatred against Jews for no good reason. People confuse facts and enter a slippery slope that leads to anti-Semitic statements. If someone points that out, they are accused of being heretics or worse.

I always find it so uncomfortable when Traditionalist friends crack jokes about Jews. Why make fun of them. Catholics shouldn't make fun of those who make mistakes or are in error :)

Jokes about Jews are unbecoming for Catholics, but that is just my opinion.

Care to elaborate on what you think is hateful and also hatred for no good reason, confusion of facts?
Reply
#13
                                                                      I can't say I hear alot of anti-Jewish comments, but nowdays when I'm around relatively conservative Novus-Ordo Catholics, I notice their reaction to any criticism of the modern state of Israel is not much different then what I'd hear from hardline Evangelical Protestants.
Reply
#14
(04-11-2017, 06:21 PM)BC Wrote: Care to elaborate on what you think is hateful and also hatred for no good reason, confusion of facts?

Well, take the charge of "Deicide" that some theologians once laid upon the entirety of the Jewish people. This brought a lot of discrimination and hatred against Jews in parts of the world that were completely isolated from the events taking place before Pilate.

The Jews then reacted to this hatred with hatred, and I don't think I need to quote the many examples because I read a very in-depth explanation somewhere on fisheaters.com about the issues of Judaism after the Ascension.

There were also practices of isolation that, albeit established for what were considered good reasons (and often were) ended up isolating them in what came to be known as "ghettos". In some times they were required to wear a distinguishable habit.

A lot of these things were understood by those who enacted them but not by the illiterate people, which led to the development of xenophobia and anti-Semitism, in turn condemned later on by the Church (but again, it is easier to acquire a vice than to uproot it, or to create a problem than to fix it).

To this day many more or less vehemently deny the Holocaust, and more or less vehemently accuse the Jews of being behind all sort of "Judeo-Masonic plots" to take over the world, etc. (see old "Protocol of the Elders of Zion" conspiracy theory). We forget that at this point in history, religion plays a little role in geo-political world dominance, and being Jewish or Catholic or Islamic is only relevant inasmuch as it can be used as a tarp to cover the hands of the puppeteers. That's why I have issues with Jew-bashing and with conspiracy mindset in general. It is often based on rumors that are often started by the very people whom the "liberated minds" think they are fighting.

There is a reason why the Desert Fathers went to the Desert to begin with. They understood that they had to bring the fight to their own ground and confront the real enemy, which was themselves. How can we apply this wisdom today?
Reply
#15
Quote: I can't say I hear alot of anti-Jewish comments, but nowdays when I'm around relatively conservative Novus-Ordo Catholics, I notice their reaction to any criticism of the modern state of Israel is not much different then what I'd hear from hardline Evangelical Protestants.

No kidding. Novus Ordo Catholics are likewise more offended by Holocaust "denial" than by Resurrection of Christ denial. Which pope warned us of the heresy of Americanism?
Reply
#16
(04-11-2017, 10:56 PM)Macarius Wrote:
(04-11-2017, 06:21 PM)BC Wrote: Care to elaborate on what you think is hateful and also hatred for no good reason, confusion of facts?

Well, take the charge of "Deicide" that some theologians once laid upon the entirety of the Jewish people. This brought a lot of discrimination and hatred against Jews in parts of the world that were completely isolated from the events taking place before Pilate.

The Jews then reacted to this hatred with hatred, and I don't think I need to quote the many examples because I read a very in-depth explanation somewhere on fisheaters.com about the issues of Judaism after the Ascension.

There were also practices of isolation that, albeit established for what were considered good reasons (and often were) ended up isolating them in what came to be known as "ghettos". In some times they were required to wear a distinguishable habit.

A lot of these things were understood by those who enacted them but not by the illiterate people, which led to the development of xenophobia and anti-Semitism, in turn condemned later on by the Church (but again, it is easier to acquire a vice than to uproot it, or to create a problem than to fix it).

To this day many more or less vehemently deny the Holocaust, and more or less vehemently accuse the Jews of being behind all sort of "Judeo-Masonic plots" to take over the world, etc. (see old "Protocol of the Elders of Zion" conspiracy theory). We forget that at this point in history, religion plays a little role in geo-political world dominance, and being Jewish or Catholic or Islamic is only relevant inasmuch as it can be used as a tarp to cover the hands of the puppeteers. That's why I have issues with Jew-bashing and with conspiracy mindset in general. It is often based on rumors that are often started by the very people whom the "liberated minds" think they are fighting.

There is a reason why the Desert Fathers went to the Desert to begin with. They understood that they had to bring the fight to their own ground and confront the real enemy, which was themselves. How can we apply this wisdom today?

Fellow, it was not just some theologians here and there critical of the Jews and their Deicide.  This is not hatred from the saints, though, vis a vis the Jews.  It is just an objective statement of fact on their condition.  The whole history of the Church attests to this up until the last 50 years of Nostra Aetate.  You're condemning a whole lot of Catholics.  Actually most of them. 

And first of all, it was the Jews that hated Christians from the get go and continued to do so forever.  It required no Christian being hateful for them to justify their desire to bring down the Goyim.  They are not to be an object of Christian contempt, but rather pity.

“The Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and have persecuted us, do not please God, and they are adversaries to all men, prohibiting us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, to fill up their sin always: for the wrath of God has come upon them to the end.”
— St. Paul, I Thessalonians 2:14-16

“It would be licit, according to custom, to hold the Jews in perpetual servitude because of their crime.” (But they are not, of course.)
— St. Thomas Aquinas

“Ungrateful for favors and forgetful of benefits, the Jews return insult for kindness and impious contempt for goodness granted. They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future grow insolent, but that in servile fear they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin.”
— Pope Gregory IX

“The Jews are enemies of God and foes of our holy religion.”
— St. Padre Pio

“Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads in saying: “His blood be on us and our children”; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the End of Time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood. O my Jesus! … I will not be obstinate like the Jews. I will love Thee forever, forever, forever!”
— St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

“We order all our brother bishops absolutely to suppress the blasphemy of Jews in your dioceses, churches, and communities, so that they do not dare raise their necks, bent under eternal slavery, to revile the Redeemer.”
— Pope Gregory IX

“It is known that the Jewish people are polluted with wickedness, blasphemy, and the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ so that their wickedness has no limit.”
— St. Felix of Toledo

"If this hostility, this repugnance had been shown towards the Jews at one time or in one country only, it would be easy to account for the local causes of this sentiment. But this race has been the object of hatred with all the nations amidst whom it ever settled. Inasmuch as the enemies of the Jews belonged to diverse races . . . it must be that the general causes of Anti-Semitism have always resided in Israel itself, and not in those who antagonized it."  -(Lazare, Bernard,  popular Jewish intellectual in France in the 19th Century,  L’Antisemitisme)

Here and there people got violent with Jews for their subversive behavior and usury, etc.  That was wrong and was condemned by Popes.  The policy in Christendom was that they could be in Gentile Christian countries but had no right to hold public office (how could they fulfill Christian state duty?) or subvert morality.  However, they eventually always could not help themselves and ended up continually kicked out of countries until recently. 

When Jews rejected the Logos, they became revolutionary against the Divine Order

https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Revolution...0929891074

https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Against-Chur...0911038396

Catholics Unveiled Masonic Jewish Plot in 1936

https://www.henrymakow.com/jewish_peril.html

What you say is "conspiracy theory" is mostly the simple putting forth into public the very words of those Jews themselves. No rumors necessary.
If you have a problem with that, maybe you can take it up with them and their Talmud....

"The Feast of Tabernacles is the period when Israel triumphs over the other people of the world. That is why during this feast we seize the loulab and carry it as a trophy to show that we have conquered all other peoples, known as "populace"..."
--Zohar, Toldoth Noah 63b

"When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."
--Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D

"Tob shebbe goyyim harog - Even the best of the Goyim (Gentiles) should be killed."
--Soferim 15, Rule 10

"A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."
--Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17

"That the Jewish nation is the only nation selected by God, while all the remaining ones are contemptible and hateful.
That all property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which consequently is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples. An orthodox Jew is not bound to observe principles of morality towards people of other tribes. He may act contrary to morality, if profitable to himself or to Jews in general.
A Jew may rob a Goy, he may cheat him over a bill, which should not be perceived by him, otherwise the name of God would become dishonoured."
--Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat, 348

"The Jewish people as a whole will be its own Messiah. It will attain world dominion by the dissolution of other races, by the abolition of frontiers, the annihilation of monarchy, and by the establishment of a world republic in which the Jews will everywhere exercise the privilege of citizenship. In this new world order the Children of Israel will furnish all the leaders without encountering opposition." -Baruch Levy, in a Letter to Karl Marx, published in the Rothschild controlled La Revue de Paris, p. 54, June 1, 1928

"Our race (speaking of the Jews) is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

- Menachem Begin (Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)

“In Jerusalem will be the seat of the Supreme Court of Mankind”- Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion, quoted in Look Magazine, 1962 | Follow The Money

"The dispersion of the Jews has rendered them a cosmopolitan people. They are the only cosmopolitan people and in this capacity must act and are acting, as a solvent of national and racial differences. The great Ideal of Judaism is ...that the whole world shall be imbued with Jewish teachings, and that in a universal Brotherhood of Nations - a greater Judaism, in fact -- all the separate races and religions shall disappear... by their dominant position in all branches of public activity, [Jews] are gradually moulding gentile thinking and systems into Jewish moulds."  Jewish World Feb 9, 1883

"We intend to turn Europe into a mixed race of Asians and Negros ruled over by the Jews". Jewish European Union "Founding Father" Richard Nikolaus Eijiro von Coudenhove-Kalergi in Praktischer Idealismus,  1925.

"Jews, we, the destroyers, will remain the destroyers for ever. Nothing that you will do will meet our needs and demands. We will for ever destroy because we need a world of our own…”

– Maurice Samuels, You Gentiles. 1942.

No, not all Jews or even most are in on the agenda to subvert the Gentile Christian world.  However, the desire to subvert and subjugate the Gentile Christian World is Jewish.

The Protocols are most likely authentic, but they don't have to be, as there is more than enough proof from Jewish mouths without them.

"Freemasonry is born out of Israel."-The Jewish Guardian, 12 April 1922

"Masonry is based on Judaism. Eliminate the teachings of Judaism from the Masonic Ritual and what is left?"- The Jewish Tribune of New York, on October 28, 1927,

"Freemasonry is a Jewish establishment, whose history, grades, official appointments, passwords, and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end." -Rabbi, Isaac Wise

"The principles of Freemasonry are all contained in the Book of Books of the Jewish people."- Rabbi Lau, 1993, Jerusalem Ceremony sponsored by the Grand Lodge of the State of Israel

What Jews have gotten everyone to call the "Holocaust" comes under scrutiny because the evidence is all over the place and has been grossly distorted.

http://www.rense.com/general69/factua.htm

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0LEV0J8Te5YfoAAIyRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZnNnMjV0BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDVUlDMV8xBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=red+cross+numbers+holocaust&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t#id=0&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsocioecohistory.files.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F11%2Fredcross-number_of_people_who_died_in_nazi_germany_concentration_camps.jpg%3Fw%3D500%26h%3D670&action=click

Auschwitz Deaths Reduced from 4 million to 1 million https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0LEV0J8Te5YfoAAIyRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZnNnMjV0BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDVUlDMV8xBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=red+cross+numbers+holocaust&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t#id=13&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi254.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh112%2Fsalaami%2Fauschwitz_lowers_numbers.jpg&action=click

As one can see, the American Red Cross, who were there at all the camps reported around 270,000 thousand deaths, which of course is an enormous tragedy in and of itself, but not to the extent that has been popularized.  There is evidence that the 6 million figure was pulled out of thin air by Jews to exaggerate.  Remarkably, it is not the first time they tried to claim 6 million deaths.  The number is sacred in the Jewish Kabbalah http://tradcatknight.blogspot.com/2015/0...s-and.html
Reply
#17
(04-12-2017, 11:45 AM)BC Wrote: Fellow, it was not just some theologians here and there critical of the Jews and their Deicide.  This is not hatred from the saints, though, vis a vis the Jews.  It is just an objective statement of fact on their condition.  The whole history of the Church attests to this up until the last 50 years of Nostra Aetate.  You're condemning a whole lot of Catholics.  Actually most of them. 

There's always a fine lie between condemning someone and reading them in context.

Also, we are bound by the living Magisterium, who has authority over any theologian, saint, Doctor, Council, and previous Pope. All I am saying Is that when we look at the historical development of the relationship between Christianity and Judaism, there's a lot more to ponder upon than a handful of statements that may or may not mean what they say, given that they were written in a particular time and age.

I am not denying the errors, nor that there may be extremist groups. But my vocation is not to "take it up" with anyone. We're just talking here, for our mutual enrichment. My vocation is to get to heaven. Fighting Jews may not be my path.
Reply
#18
(04-12-2017, 04:20 PM)Macarius Wrote:
(04-12-2017, 11:45 AM)BC Wrote: Fellow, it was not just some theologians here and there critical of the Jews and their Deicide.  This is not hatred from the saints, though, vis a vis the Jews.  It is just an objective statement of fact on their condition.  The whole history of the Church attests to this up until the last 50 years of Nostra Aetate.  You're condemning a whole lot of Catholics.  Actually most of them. 

There's always a fine lie between condemning someone and reading them in context.

Also, we are bound by the living Magisterium, who has authority over any theologian, saint, Doctor, Council, and previous Pope. All I am saying Is that when we look at the historical development of the relationship between Christianity and Judaism, there's a lot more to ponder upon than a handful of statements that may or may not mean what they say, given that they were written in a particular time and age.

I am not denying the errors, nor that there may be extremist groups. But my vocation is not to "take it up" with anyone. We're just talking here, for our mutual enrichment. My vocation is to get to heaven. Fighting Jews may not be my path.

I'm not sure how that can be. It almost sounds as if you are claiming that a current magisterium can change doctrine in defiance of previous ones, and we are simply to follow the current one without regard for what came before, or any longstanding tradition. I'm just reading this from my phone though, and am in a bumpy car (as a passenger), so hopefully I'm misunderstanding something.
Reply
#19
(04-12-2017, 04:20 PM)Macarius Wrote:
(04-12-2017, 11:45 AM)BC Wrote: Fellow, it was not just some theologians here and there critical of the Jews and their Deicide.  This is not hatred from the saints, though, vis a vis the Jews.  It is just an objective statement of fact on their condition.  The whole history of the Church attests to this up until the last 50 years of Nostra Aetate.  You're condemning a whole lot of Catholics.  Actually most of them. 

There's always a fine lie between condemning someone and reading them in context.

Also, we are bound by the living Magisterium, who has authority over any theologian, saint, Doctor, Council, and previous Pope. All I am saying Is that when we look at the historical development of the relationship between Christianity and Judaism, there's a lot more to ponder upon than a handful of statements that may or may not mean what they say, given that they were written in a particular time and age.

I am not denying the errors, nor that there may be extremist groups. But my vocation is not to "take it up" with anyone. We're just talking here, for our mutual enrichment. My vocation is to get to heaven. Fighting Jews may not be my path.

What errors? What context?

You mean a Living Magesterium can overturn two millennia of teaching through non in fallible statements at the behest of non Catholic requests...?  This happened at Vatican II and was principally made by Jules Isaac and the B`nai B`rith in order to innoculate themselves from healthy Catholic suspicions to their intentions..

In fact, at the origin of the reforms proposed to the Council in order to change the conduct and the secular doctrine of the Church towards Judaism and Freemasonry were several Jewish personalities and organizations: Jules Isaac Marx (1877–1963), Label Katz, President of B’nai B’rith, Nahum Goldmann (1895–1982), of the Jewish World Congress, etc. Among the above cited Jewish figures, there is one who played a preeminent role: the writer Jules Isaac, a Jew from Aix-en-Provence, a former General Inspector of French Education, author of classic texts and of L’Histoire de France (Ed. Malet-Isaac), and a member of B’nai B’rith. During the Council, where he found support among the progressive bishops, Jules Isaac was the principal theorist and promoter of the campaign against the traditional teaching of the Church concerning Judaism. We now see the position which he took to make prevail his thesis. ,

Here is the crux of the thesis maintained by Jules Isaac. It is necessary at last to bring an end to anti-Semitism, the result of which was the massacre of European Jews at Auschwitz and in other extermination camps during the Second World War. The “Christian anti-Semitism,” with its theological basis, is the most fearful anti-Semitism.[6] Indeed, the attitude of Christians towards the Jews and Judaism has always been based on the story of the Passion which has been reported by the four Evangelists, and on the teaching which the Fathers of the Church have made: in particular, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory the Great, St. Agobard, etc. Jules Isaac tried to demolish this fundamental theological basis by challenging the historical value of the evangelical accounts and by discrediting the arguments advanced by the Fathers of the Church to protect it from the influence of the Jews, who were accused of feeding subversive intentions against the Christian order.


*[7] For further confirmation, here is a short excerpt from an article published in February 1936 in the London magazine Catholic Gazete, which contains some excerpts of conversations of Parisian Jews in the course of secret meetings: “We have already done most of our work, but we cannot say that we have reached the goal of our operation (opera). We still have a long way to go before being able to overthrow our main enemy: the Catholic Church. We must keep well in mind that the Catholic Church is the only institution that is set to block our route and will remain so for however long its existence will last. The Catholic Church, with its methodical work and its educational and moral teachings, forms in its own children such a mindset that will keep them too proud of themselves to submit to our domination and to kneel at the feet of the future King of Israel.” Shortly thereafter, the Parisian weekly Le réveil du peuple reported that these statements were made during a meeting of the Masonic Order B’nai B’rith (cf. Chiesa viva, nº 178, October 1987, p.16).

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/201...il-part-i/

Also see How the Jews Changed Catholic Thinking From "Look" Magazine, Volume 30 No. 2 by Joseph Roddy
January 25, 1966

http://www.fisheaters.com/jewsvaticanii.html

Talmudic Judaism does not dictate Catholic doctrine.
Reply
#20
(04-12-2017, 05:42 PM)Credidi Propter Wrote: It almost sounds as if you are claiming that a current magisterium can change doctrine in defiance of previous ones, and we are simply to follow the current one without regard for what came before, or any longstanding tradition.

Vatican I (and many other dogmatic teachings) say the Pope can change pretty much anything AS LONG AS it does not CONTRADICT a previous DOGMATIC teaching :) Longstanding traditions hold no weight against the Pope. Only that which is Dogma De Fide cannot be changed by the Pope.

Ludwing Ott has a book on the Dogmas of the Church, and you'd be surprised about just how much of what we believe is theological opinion rather than Dogma De Fide.

And of course, the Church has always held that Catholics must submit to what the Church teaches even when they do not intend to make a definitive pronouncement.

So f.ex. a Pope can change a missal (it's been done a million times) but not the meaning of the Eucharist (he cannot say it's a mere symbol or deny that it is the same Sacrifice of Calvary re-presented in the here and now).

Also a Pope can go back and declare that a previous Pope or Council was wrong if he has additional information that they did not have back then. This used to happen a lot in the first few centuries, then the process slowed down.

But yes, laity are pretty much called to follow the shepherd like the good, dumb sheep we are :) That doesn't mean there aren't ways to make issues known or that we must not address existing problems. But it all begins with recognition of the living Magisterium.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)