Has anyone else been thinking this way lately?
#21
(04-16-2017, 07:51 PM)Eric F Wrote:                                                   If you decide Our Lady of Fatima is demonic, when her statue is in numerous Catholic Churches, we celebrate her Feast day, and millions of Catholics have a devotion to her, what's to stop you from deciding what else is demonic ? At that point you could make the argument that almost any Saint is demonic. I couldn't see belonging to a church where I might have to say, that statue 20 feet from the pew I'm kneeling in is demonic, it's that absurd.

So shouldn't the Church then declare it de fide that the apparitions are true and come from God?  Why does the Church profess to allow dissent on this issue if it doesn't actually do so?
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#22
(04-16-2017, 08:16 PM)Melkite Wrote: So shouldn't the Church then declare it de fide that the apparitions are true and come from God?  Why does the Church profess to allow dissent on this issue if it doesn't actually do so?

I don't think the Church really declares "de fide" events that are simply gratuitous gifts of God in the Church's history. It is my understanding that matters of this sort should elicit the virtue of religious assent. The Church has continuously promoted the devotion. The Church knows better than us as individuals. We should always at least give assent to our superiors in matters that are doubtful.

But what do I know? I 'm still several months away from being a real deal Catholic anyway...
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#23
                                                  You're not required to have a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, or Our Lady of Lourdes, or St Anthony, or the Little Flower, etc, I know an Eastern Catholic priest who doesn't say the rosary, you're not required to be saying the Divine Mercy Novena this week, but to suggest that any of these devotions might be demonic is just totally inappropriate for a Catholic. It is not sinful to disbelieve in an apparition (however, if the Church has ruled it "worthy of belief", one must at least be respectful of it).
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#24
How can anyone deny Fatima and its miracle when 70,000 people witnessed it, when photographs of the people there appeared in the newspapers of the time.
To actually suggest it was a demonic apparition is equally absurd. What was demonic about it? If the Devil is about the business of telling us people are falling into hell like snowflakes falling from the clouds, and to pray the rosary, do penance, then the devil himself has converted to Catholicism. If there is even one aberration about Fatima, then yes, it must have been the Devil (Like Medjugorje). But there is none, so stop your nonsense lads,
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#25
                                                  Absolutely ! And during the Fatima visions, a poor peasant showed he had more spiritual common sense, when in answer to a priest's admonition that, "we must be very careful, this could all be a deception of the devil" to which the peasant replied (going from memory here) "Don't be silly, the devil would never tell anyone to say the rosary or go to confession".
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#26
(04-17-2017, 11:24 AM)cassini Wrote: How can anyone deny Fatima and its miracle when 70,000 people witnessed it, when photographs of the people there appeared in the newspapers of the time.
To actually suggest it was a demonic apparition is equally absurd. What was demonic about it? If the Devil is about the business of telling us people are falling into hell like snowflakes falling from the clouds, and to pray the rosary, do penance, then the devil himself has converted to Catholicism. If there is even one aberration about Fatima, then yes, it must have been the Devil (Like Medjugorje). But there is none, so stop your nonsense lads,

There you go picking and choosing again.  If souls fall into hell like snowflakes, then Fatima certainly is presenting a message of despair - despair that anyone has even a remote chance of entering heaven.  Despair does not come from God.  But I'm sure you'll have an answer to why the despair of Fatima is somehow a grace...

Many people won't deny the abomination of desolation as coming from God either, even though just as many, if not more, will witness it as did Fatima.  Amount of witnesses and photographs =/= sent by God.
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#27
(04-17-2017, 12:25 PM)Melkite Wrote: There you go picking and choosing again.  If souls fall into hell like snowflakes, then Fatima certainly is presenting a message of despair - despair that anyone has even a remote chance of entering heaven.  Despair does not come from God.  But I'm sure you'll have an answer to why the despair of Fatima is somehow a grace...

Melkite,

Sacred scripture tells us that few are saved. The message of Fatima is consistent with sacred scripture. I do not think it fair that you connect the message that few are saved with despair.

Matthew 7:13-15
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 22:!4
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke 13:23-24
23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

As others have said if you choose not to believe it that is your choice and belief in Fatima is not a requisite for salvation. However the Church has deemed Fatima worthly of belief, just be respectful.

~CC~
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#28
The fact--assuming it is a fact--that few are being saved (or that many are being lost) should certainly be distressing, but it should not lead to despair concerning the difficulty of being saved.  Salvation is not a matter of difficulty.  I think the end of St. Leonard of Port Maurice's famous sermon on this topic is the most important:

St. Leonard Wrote:Brothers, I want to send all of you away comforted today. So if you ask me my sentiment on the number of those who are saved, here it is: Whether there are many or few that are saved, I say that whoever wants to be saved, will be saved; and that no one can be damned if he does not want to be. And if it is true that few are saved, it is because there are few who live well. As for the rest, compare these two opinions: the first one states that the greater number of Catholics are condemned; the second one, on the contrary, pretends that the greater number of Catholics are saved. Imagine an Angel sent by God to confirm the first opinion, coming to tell you that not only are most Catholics damned, but that of all this assembly present here, one alone will be saved. If you obey the Commandments of God, if you detest the corruption of this world, if you embrace the Cross of Jesus Christ in a spirit of penance, you will be that one alone who is saved.

Now imagine the same Angel returning to you and confirming the second opinion. He tells you that not only are the greater portion of Catholics saved, but that out of all this gathering, one alone will be damned and all the others saved. If after that, you continue your usuries, your vengeances, your criminal deeds, your impurities, then you will be that one alone who is damned.

What is the use of knowing whether few or many are saved? Saint Peter says to us, "Strive by good works to make your election sure." When Saint Thomas Aquinas's sister asked him what she must do to go to heaven, he said, "You will be saved if you want to be." I say the same thing to you, and here is proof of my declaration. No one is damned unless he commits mortal sin: that is of faith. And no one commits mortal sin unless he wants to: that is an undeniable theological proposition. Therefore, no one goes to hell unless he wants to; the consequence is obvious. Does that not suffice to comfort you? Weep over past sins, make a good confession, sin no more in the future, and you will all be saved. Why torment yourself so? For it is certain that you have to commit mortal sin to go to hell, and that to commit mortal sin you must want to, and that consequently no one goes to hell unless he wants to. That is not just an opinion, it is an undeniable and very comforting truth; may God give you to understand it, and may He bless you. Amen.
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#29
(04-17-2017, 01:40 PM)CaptCrunch73 Wrote: Melkite,

Sacred scripture tells us that few are saved. The message of Fatima is consistent with sacred scripture. I do not think it fair that you connect the message that few are saved with despair.

Matthew 7:13-15
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 22:!4
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke 13:23-24
23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

As others have said if you choose not to believe it that is your choice and belief in Fatima is not a requisite for salvation. However the Church has deemed Fatima worthly of belief, just be respectful.

~CC~

If those are allegorical, then yes, there is no reason to despair.  If the visions that some saints have had are true, there is every reason to despair.  Which saint was it that said 50,000 people died one day, two went to heaven, one to purgatory and the rest to hell?  Those odds are staggeringly desperate.  You can say, "Ah, it is impossible for man, but with God anything is possible!"  What false hope!  What does it matter if with God anything is possible?  If you're still one of the 49,997 who went to hell that day, it doesn't matter for you that anything is possible with God - you went to hell!  For you, it might as well have been that God was impotent!  At least then you wouldn't have the added salt in the wound that God could have saved you but chose to let you burn.
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#30
                                                        Once again, you are not required to believe those visions.
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