Has anyone else been thinking this way lately?
#31
(04-17-2017, 03:44 PM)Eric F Wrote:                                                         Once again, you are not required to believe those visions.

Maybe this is just a peculiar sticking point for me, but I can't see how I am not required to believe them if I am required to respect them.  Something that is not true is not worthy of respect.  So how can I be free to not believe them if I am required to treat them as if they are worthy of belief?  It's as if the Church is saying I'm free to profess my disbelief in them with my words, but must profess belief in them with my actions.  That's very schizophrenic.
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#32
(04-17-2017, 02:54 PM)Melkite Wrote: If the visions that some saints have had are true, there is every reason to despair.  Which saint was it that said 50,000 people died one day, two went to heaven, one to purgatory and the rest to hell?  Those odds are staggeringly desperate.  You can say, "Ah, it is impossible for man, but with God anything is possible!"  What false hope!  What does it matter if with God anything is possible?  If you're still one of the 49,997 who went to hell that day, it doesn't matter for you that anything is possible with God - you went to hell!  For you, it might as well have been that God was impotent!  At least then you wouldn't have the added salt in the wound that God could have saved you but chose to let you burn.

While I understand what you're saying, in some ways it's kinda like saying, "Well, according to the Bell Curve 50% of the people are going to fail that test, so I'm not going to study for it because of statistics". While it's possible that 49,997 people will go to Hell today, does that mean we shouldn't do everything possible to try and be one of the three? I mean, people buy lotto tickets on way worse odds than those!

Although interesting, this conversation is making me think of something I recent read about the Amish. They have a big thing about pride and how sinful it is. They consider it sinful to think that they're going to Heaven, like how some Christians will say, "Well, I'm a believer in Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior, so I [i]know[/i} I'm going to Heaven." The best they can desire is the hope of going to Heaven. I find that position much closer to the traditional Catholic perspective than this happy-new-church-let's-be-glad-because-you're-grandpa-is-an-angel-in-heaven-now position.

(04-17-2017, 04:43 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(04-17-2017, 03:44 PM)Eric F Wrote:                                                         Once again, you are not required to believe those visions.

Maybe this is just a peculiar sticking point for me, but I can't see how I am not required to believe them if I am required to respect them.  Something that is not true is not worthy of respect.  So how can I be free to not believe them if I am required to treat them as if they are worthy of belief?  It's as if the Church is saying I'm free to profess my disbelief in them with my words, but must profess belief in them with my actions.  That's very schizophrenic.

You're also free not to like peanut butter and jelly, but just because you don't like doesn't mean it's from the Devil. Not believing something you're not required to believe in (but it's perfectly fine for you to believe in) vs. declaring it evil/from the Devil are somewhat different positions. I can see how someone would find that offensive.
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#33
That city of 50000 inhabitants of which only 3 were saved, it is Sodom, and yes, the Bible teaches that, for sure, all its inhabitants except the 3 ones were damned and destroyed by Heaven's fire.
Regarding Fatima, one must have a very twisted mind imagining that God might have allowed Satan, in his zeale to deceive the men,  to engineer the Miracle of the Sun, a marvel of astronomical size, the kind even Jesus himself never performed during his time on Earth, a Miracle witnessed by tens of thousands people in a 30 km circle around Fatima, a prodigy that our Lady herself  foretold the 3 kids, months beforehand with these words:
"In the last month, October, I shall perform here a great miracle SO THAT ALL MAY BELIEVE".

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#34
(04-17-2017, 05:38 PM)maso Wrote: That city of 50000 inhabitants of which only 3 were saved, it is Sodom, and yes, the Bible teaches that, for sure, all its inhabitants except the 3 ones were damned and destroyed by Heaven's fire.
Regarding Fatima, one must have a very twisted mind imagining that God might have allowed Satan, in his zeale to deceive the men,  to engineer the Miracle of the Sun, a marvel of astronomical size, the kind even Jesus himself never performed during his time on Earth, a Miracle witnessed by tens of thousands people in a 30 km circle around Fatima, a prodigy that our Lady herself  foretold the 3 kids, months beforehand with these words:
"In the last month, October, I shall perform here a great miracle SO THAT ALL MAY BELIEVE".

I'm not convinced that so many people at Fatima saw whatever it was that took place.  The majority of people who claimed to see the sun dancing saw nothing more than what one naturally sees when they look at the sun for more than a few seconds.
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#35
I believe St. Padre Pio had more of a belief that a larger percentage of Catholics would be saved, but most went to purgatory. My personal belief is in agreement with that... where most practicing Catholics would fall into that category. Of course when we compare the entire world population to practicing Catholics or even if you want to be ecumenical and say practicing Christians in general, it's probably an awfully small percentage.
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#36
(04-17-2017, 06:32 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(04-17-2017, 05:38 PM)maso Wrote: That city of 50000 inhabitants of which only 3 were saved, it is Sodom, and yes, the Bible teaches that, for sure, all its inhabitants except the 3 ones were damned and destroyed by Heaven's fire.
Regarding Fatima, one must have a very twisted mind imagining that God might have allowed Satan, in his zeale to deceive the men,  to engineer the Miracle of the Sun, a marvel of astronomical size, the kind even Jesus himself never performed during his time on Earth, a Miracle witnessed by tens of thousands people in a 30 km circle around Fatima, a prodigy that our Lady herself  foretold the 3 kids, months beforehand with these words:
"In the last month, October, I shall perform here a great miracle SO THAT ALL MAY BELIEVE".

I'm not convinced that so many people at Fatima saw whatever it was that took place.  The majority of people who claimed to see the sun dancing saw nothing more than what one naturally sees when they look at the sun for more than a few seconds.
People who stare at the sun while standing in mud don't usually believe the world is about to end because the sun is plummeting to the ground and causing them to repent right there and confess their sins out loud. Staring at the sun doesn't dry up all the mud on the ground. It also usually doesn't make the skeptics in the crowd believe anything special is going on, nor does it make secular newspapers publish articles about the event.

Fatima is ultimately a message of great hope. It can be summed up in, "Pray the Rosary, wear the Brown Scapular, and be devoted to my Immaculate Heart. Peace will eventually come to the world for a while."
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#37
(04-17-2017, 09:18 PM)In His Love Wrote: People who stare at the sun while standing in mud don't usually believe the world is about to end because the sun is plummeting to the ground and causing them to repent right there and confess their sins out loud. Staring at the sun doesn't dry up all the mud on the ground. It also usually doesn't make the skeptics in the crowd believe anything special is going on, nor does it make secular newspapers publish articles about the event.

Exactly.  Most of the people there didn't see the sun plummet to the ground.  They saw it spin and change colors.  Whether they saw the mud dried up, many of them didn't say one way or the other.  But even if it did, if demons can make people levitate, speak languages they've never studied, climb walls and walk on ceilings, certainly they can dry out some mud.
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#38
(04-17-2017, 09:55 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(04-17-2017, 09:18 PM)In His Love Wrote: People who stare at the sun while standing in mud don't usually believe the world is about to end because the sun is plummeting to the ground and causing them to repent right there and confess their sins out loud. Staring at the sun doesn't dry up all the mud on the ground. It also usually doesn't make the skeptics in the crowd believe anything special is going on, nor does it make secular newspapers publish articles about the event.

Exactly.  Most of the people there didn't see the sun plummet to the ground.  They saw it spin and change colors.  Whether they saw the mud dried up, many of them didn't say one way or the other.  But even if it did, if demons can make people levitate, speak languages they've never studied, climb walls and walk on ceilings, certainly they can dry out some mud.

Why on earth would a 'demon' tell three children to pray the Rosary and to wear the Brown Scapular?

I would be very, very careful about this. Yes, Fatima is a private revelation, but it's one thing to not follow the message and a whole other thing to say it's demonic in origin.
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#39
(04-17-2017, 10:08 PM)In His Love Wrote: Why on earth would a 'demon' tell three children to pray the Rosary and to wear the Brown Scapular?

I don't know.  I do know that the visionaries at Medjugorje were asked to pray the rosary, and many trads believe it to be demonic.  So we can't have it both ways.  If Medjugorje is demonic, then it is possible for demons to ask people to pray the rosary, which means Fatima is at least possibly demonic as well.  If demons cannot ask people to pray the rosary, then you must accept Medjugorje as being from God to the same degree you believe Fatima is.
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#40
(04-17-2017, 10:24 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(04-17-2017, 10:08 PM)In His Love Wrote: Why on earth would a 'demon' tell three children to pray the Rosary and to wear the Brown Scapular?

I don't know.  I do know that the visionaries at Medjugorje were asked to pray the rosary, and many trads believe it to be demonic.  So we can't have it both ways.  If Medjugorje is demonic, then it is possible for demons to ask people to pray the rosary, which means Fatima is at least possibly demonic as well.  If demons cannot ask people to pray the rosary, then you must accept Medjugorje as being from God to the same degree you believe Fatima is.
Medjugorje is riddled with problems.

"Bishop Peric has spoken of other problems, apart from disobedient Franciscans: religious communities established without diocesan permission and ecclesiastical buildings erected without approval. What is going on? A sound Canadian priest once said to me, when I asked him about the “good fruits” of Medjugorje: “The Devil doesn’t mind a few thousand people becoming better Catholics after going there if, as a result, he’s got millions of Catholics being disobedient to the authority of the Church.”"

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commenta...obedience/

The difference is that Fatima promotes obedience, prayer, acts of penance, and other virtuous acts. Medjugorje is surrounded by controversy.



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