Why no modern English trad Bible translation?
#91
(03-08-2021, 08:32 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 08:15 PM)Filiolus Wrote: Honestly, I can't see why it would be a sin to just read a psalm or two. But I don't think it should be one's regular spiritual reading.

That's how it starts.  Just a psalm or two at a party.  Then, you're look up some verses at home on a Friday night, out of curiosity.  You tell yourself you can quit at any time.  But that never works.  And before you know it, you can't stop, and you're a protestant.

KJV the "gateway" drug for Protestantism.

Just read the "approved" translations that refer to the woman as a "He" or "They" in the RSV-CE and NABRE.

Whatever you do, stay away from the KJV!!!


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#92
(03-08-2021, 08:32 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 08:15 PM)Filiolus Wrote: Honestly, I can't see why it would be a sin to just read a psalm or two. But I don't think it should be one's regular spiritual reading.

That's how it starts.  Just a psalm or two at a party.  Then, you're look up some verses at home on a Friday night, out of curiosity.  You tell yourself you can quit at any time.  But that never works.  And before you know it, you can't stop, and you're a protestant.

You try and hide it from your parents. You know that they would disapprove. So you go to the Anglo-Catholic parish on the other side of town, try and play it cool. After all, they've got rosaries and icons. No big deal right. And the King James is in the lectionary. 

But the high just never feels the same. You need more radical methods, so you go to the Methodist Church. Hey, they've still got a bishop, right? I know she's a little social justicey, but And John Wesley wrote some nice hymns, eh? But it just ain't the same neither. They've got the King James out of the lectionary, and use the NRSV.

"Happy are those who do not follow the advice of the wicked..." You can't take it anymore. You get sick just hearing it. These new translations have been cut so much by the time they get to you, you might has well read Danielle Steel.

That's when you here that there is an independent bible Baptist Church down the road.... KJV 1611 only.

And another life is ruined.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#93
I get that the KJV has intentionally bad translations aimed at promoting heresy; that's why I don't think a Catholic should use it for regular spiritual reading.

In my experience, far more people are mislead by other, more modern translations. 

(This problem isn't limited to the English speaking world; the German bishop-approved Einheitsübersetzung, for example, also uses gender neutral language, and translates other things to be more PC, and is even worse than the NAB. This is the translation currently in use in German liturgies.)
Dissolve frigus ligna super foco
large reponens atque benignius
     deprome quadrimum Sabina,
          O Thaliarche, merum diota.

Permitte divis cetera...
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#94
(03-09-2021, 12:42 PM)Filiolus Wrote: I get that the KJV has intentionally bad translations aimed at promoting heresy; that's why I don't think a Catholic should use it for regular spiritual reading.

In my experience, far more people are mislead by other, more modern translations. 

(This problem isn't limited to the English speaking world; the German bishop-approved Einheitsübersetzung, for example, also uses gender neutral language, and translates other things to be more PC, and is even worse than the NAB. This is the translation currently in use in German liturgies.)

Yes, I find the NABRE of "they" to refer to the "woman" in Genesis 3:15 to be more of a scandal than "It" and yes, the KJV says "highly favored one" but so does the NABRE and NRSV-CE....so again why the pearl-clutching? I'm more offended that the Church slapped an impramatur and a nihil obstat on those translations and didn't bother to put a footnote. The RSV-CE properly used my personal preference "full of grace."
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#95
The only reason I could get behind the use of the King James would be for cultural reasons. People, especially people who grew up in conservative American protestant households, do have this attachment to the phraseology. It sounds "right."

But based on prior discussions I've had, it would need to go through the process of approval. But I think it could be done and wouldn't be scandalous. A Catholic Authorized Version wouldn't be the worst think to have happened. Austen has pointed out that the ESV, RSV, and NRSV have all received a Catholic edition and imprimatur, so they're good to go. No reason this couldn't happen with the KJV.

Yet, I don't think this is something necessary. There is already an inundation of bible translations, both Catholic and protestant, it can be dizzying. I think adding the King James Version to the litany of approved translations would just add more confusion and disunity. 

And the primary problem with the NAB is the footnotes. Those things are loaded with liberal scholarship, so someone who is uninformed about the nuances of biblical studies could read one of these notes and have their whole faith called into question.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#96
(03-08-2021, 12:55 PM)J Michael Wrote: This may be well outside the scope of this thread, but your last sentence begs, for me, this question:  What is it in the KJV (and by extension, the NKJV?) that is heretical that is not in the DR?  I honestly don't know and ask purely out of my ignorance--not trying to troll or argue.  Also, how do we know that it "was written to promote heresy"?  

Thanks!!

Luke 1, 28 is one example: 'And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.' Another is James 5, 14: 'Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord'.

The Catholic translations are 'full of grace' and 'priests'. But Protestants, including Anglicans (particularly 17th-century Anglicans) deny the Immaculate Conception, the sinlessness of Mary, and the sacrificial priesthood, and that Extreme Unction is a Sacrament. For Anglicans, only Baptism and Communion are Sacraments. The rejection of the sacrificial priesthood is why Leo XIII said Anglican orders are invalid - they changed the ritual to remove references to sacrifice, and thus no longer intended to ordain priests. A priest, by definition, is one who offers sacrifice to a deity, and isn't the same thing as a minister, which just means 'official' or 'servant', as in a government minister holding public office and serving the ruler, or the public.

The KJV was written for the Anglican church, and to express Anglican doctrine and Anglican ecclesiology. There's a reason the Douay-Rheims was written in France (hence the name), and it's that Catholicism was illegal in England, and saying Mass or even being a Catholic priest was punishable by death.
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#97
(03-08-2021, 07:54 PM)austenbosten Wrote: But one can still read the KJV of Psalm 23 and still be faithful since there is no real deviation from the message in that particular Psalm.  I would also argue reading Genesis 3:15 is not sinful if the Catholic recognizes that "...it shall bruise thy head" refers to the woman mentioned in the same verse earlier and thus "It" refers to She, as in Our Lady.  Again this requires an already formed Catholic conscience that means the KJV is not really suited to uninformed Catholics, hence why Catholics should be "on guard" towards any book without a Nihil Obstat and  Imprimatur.
(03-08-2021, 07:54 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Just read the "approved" translations that refer to the woman as a "He" or "They" in the RSV-CE and NABRE.

The Hebrew pronoun isn't 'she', and not entirely clear. Hebrew also has gender, and the pronoun matches the gender of the noun, not the sex of whatever it refers to. That's why the Sunday after Pentecost is Festum Sanctissimæ Trinitatis and the Office for that Feast is full of feminine adjectives - that doesn't mean God is female. There's nothing wrong with translating it as ipsa, but since it's through her Son that Mary crushes the serpent, ipse wouldn't be wrong. Nor the Nova Vulgata's ipsum, since semen, 'seed', is neuter.
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#98
(03-11-2021, 08:08 PM)Paul Wrote: Catholicism was illegal in England, and saying Mass or even being a Catholic priest was punishable by death.

And for laymen, there were stiff, indeed ruinous, fines for not attending the heretic services.

Laymen (and women) who were executed were executed for 'crimes' like hiding a Priest, providing a place for Mass to be celebrated, or, in the case of men, for attempting to go to the Continent for ordination.
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#99
(03-09-2021, 07:03 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Yes, I find the NABRE of "they" to refer to the "woman" in Genesis 3:15 to be more of a scandal than "It" and yes, the KJV says "highly favored one" but so does the NABRE and NRSV-CE....so again why the pearl-clutching? I'm more offended that the Church slapped an impramatur and a nihil obstat on those translations and didn't bother to put a footnote.  The RSV-CE properly used my personal preference "full of grace."

'They' is 'the offspring', referring to all Christians, since we're all children of Adam and Eve.

Maybe they do hand out imprimaturs too easily these days, but there's also a reason why the NABRE was rejected for the liturgy, and even portions of the NAB were changed for the Lectionary. 'Highly favoured' isn't wrong, even if incomplete, and approval doesn't mean they agrees with everything in it, and Catholics were involved in the NRSV translation. Still, you'd think they'd be a little pickier about Scripture translations.
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(03-11-2021, 08:29 PM)Paul Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 07:03 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Yes, I find the NABRE of "they" to refer to the "woman" in Genesis 3:15 to be more of a scandal than "It" and yes, the KJV says "highly favored one" but so does the NABRE and NRSV-CE....so again why the pearl-clutching? I'm more offended that the Church slapped an impramatur and a nihil obstat on those translations and didn't bother to put a footnote.  The RSV-CE properly used my personal preference "full of grace."

'They' is 'the offspring', referring to all Christians, since we're all children of Adam and Eve.

Maybe they do hand out imprimaturs too easily these days, but there's also a reason why the NABRE was rejected for the liturgy, and even portions of the NAB were changed for the Lectionary. 'Highly favoured' isn't wrong, even if incomplete, and approval doesn't mean they agrees with everything in it, and Catholics were involved in the NRSV translation. Still, you'd think they'd be a little pickier about Scripture translations.

That's frankly my point Paul in response to all this knee-jerk reaction towards the KJV. If you were wholly ignorant and your read the KJV and didn't realize it was a KJV, then you would be far less scandalized than if you read the NABRE.
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