Benedict still the Pope - a legitimate option?
#21
..."That would be incorrect only if his abdication was not free. Only Benedict could testify to that"...
We could see on several occasions that Pope Emeritus Benedict hasn't free speech.
When Mgr Luigi Negri testified that he resigned under huge pressures (see my comment above) , why didn't he speak himself to contradict him ?
The official contradiction came through the voice of Mgr Gänswein.
The same when Fr Dollinger (another friend of Benedict) spoke about a hidden part of the Fatima's 3rd Secret. The Pope didn't reply himself to deny this.
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#22
(05-10-2017, 10:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Benedict is not the Pope. He resigned the Papacy. That is a demonstrable and morally certain fact.

That would be incorrect only if his abdication was not free. Only Benedict could testify to that, since it involves his internal dispositions. So far, there's no such testimony, thus quod gratis affirmatur, gratis negantur.

How about you just try to be a good Catholic—say your daily Rosary, go to Mass, do your duty of state, fix what your can in your own life and that of your family. Leave the theological "opinions" to theologians, and what you can't fix, leave to God.

Amen, to what MagisterMusicae says.
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#23
(05-11-2017, 03:19 AM)maso Wrote: When Mgr Luigi Negri testified that he resigned under huge pressures (see my comment above) , why didn't he speak himself to contradict him ?
The official contradiction came through the voice of Mgr Gänswein.
The same when Fr Dollinger (another friend of Benedict) spoke about a hidden part of the Fatima's 3rd Secret. The Pope didn't reply himself to deny this.

:LOL:

Are you really trying to assert that something is true until it's denied?

Would that really satisfy you if Benedict made some 'official' denial whenever someone came up with a new assertion? I doubt it.

That's the kind of crazy talk that conspiracy theorists thrive on: 'He didn't deny it, so he's secretly saying it's correct' or 'The total lack of proof is proof that "they" doing a bang up job of hiding it' ...

That's the analogue the negative doubts that lead to scruples : I've sinned grievously until I can prove that I haven't?
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#24
Who is the liar ?
Mgr Negri or Mgr Gänswein ?
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#25
OK, my two cents worth. I don't like Pope Francis. He's like one of my Sisters. I love her but I don't like her! I love Pope Francis, and I have absolutely no doubt that any prayers I make 'for the Pope' are for him. I think that in his capacity as a private doctor he is a heretic, which I also thought of Pope John Paul II, but that doesn't change my opinion that he is the validly elected Pope and Vicar of Christ.

I totally agree with what Magister Musicae has written. Until Pope Emeritus Benedict publicly declares that he was forced to resign, attempts to 'prove' it from his silence border on insanity. Pope Francis is universally accepted as Pope. A few sedevacantists and armchair canonists on Trad fora do not derogate from the FACT that 1,200,000,000 Catholics around the world accept him as Pope.

As MM said,  'How about you just try to be a good Catholic—say your daily Rosary, go to Mass, do your duty of state, fix what your can in your own life and that of your family. Leave the theological "opinions" to theologians, and what you can't fix, leave to God.' This applies to ALL of us.
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#26
(05-13-2017, 06:00 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: OK, my two cents worth. I don't like Pope Francis. He's like one of my Sisters. I love her but I don't like her! I love Pope Francis, and I have absolutely no doubt that any prayers I make 'for the Pope' are for him. I think that in his capacity as a private doctor he is a heretic, which I also thought of Pope John Paul II, but that doesn't change my opinion that he is the validly elected Pope and Vicar of Christ.

I totally agree with what Magister Musicae has written. Until Pope Emeritus Benedict publicly declares that he was forced to resign, attempts to 'prove' it from his silence border on insanity. Pope Francis is universally accepted as Pope. A few sedevacantists and armchair canonists on Trad fora do not derogate from the FACT that 1,200,000,000 Catholics around the world accept him as Pope.

As MM said,  'How about you just try to be a good Catholic—say your daily Rosary, go to Mass, do your duty of state, fix what your can in your own life and that of your family. Leave the theological "opinions" to theologians, and what you can't fix, leave to God.' This applies to ALL of us.

This has nothing to do with sedevacantism since the Seat of Peter is still occupied by a Pope.
Do you truly believe that a man who underwent huge pressures to force him into his renunciation (according to Mgr Negri), including possible death threats, will suddenly change his mind and point his finger to the plotters?
And is the fact that Francis is "universally accepted" as pope enough to have the guarantee that he is really the Pope?
I never heard of anyone, even myself, who refused to accept him as the true Pope in the aftermath of his election. The doubts began after Card. Danneels couldn't stupidly refrain himself boasting about the "mafia" (his own words) that engineered the election nor hide his satisfaction of seeing Card. Bergoglio elected.
The pressures Benedict underwent  couldn't nothing but to confirm these doubts.
http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.p...=3435790.0
... "At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death."  (Prophecy of St FRANCIS of Assisi)
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#27
(05-14-2017, 04:35 PM)maso Wrote: This has nothing to do with sedevacantism since the Seat of Peter is still occupied by a Pope.

No, it actually has a specific term... sedebenedictism or something (I'm sure someone will correct me). It's basically the same thing - that someone thinks they possess secret knowledge that somehow the Pope is not who we think it is.

(05-14-2017, 04:35 PM)maso Wrote: Do you truly believe that a man who underwent huge pressures to force him into his renunciation (according to Mgr Negri), including possible death threats, will suddenly change his mind and point his finger to the plotters?

Yes, if he's the man most people says he is.

Let's put it this way: I have tremendous love and respect for Pope Benedict. I honestly believe that he would martyr himself for the faith if it came to that. As  such, I *must* believe that he resigned of his own free will.
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#28
I understand why people are flirting with this opinion, but it makes absolutely no sense. Yes, I miss Benedict, for quite a few reasons. I came into the Church under him. I miss his clarity. He has the mind of a scholar; he's brilliant, and I loved listening to him wax intellectual on theological matters. But, as has already been mentioned, the majority of Catholics acknowledge Francis as the Pope, and it would make little sense to latch onto a conspiracy theory simply because Francis' pontificate is confusing.

I'm doing what I can to keep the Francis-related news articles I read to a minimum, keep him in my prayers, and wait for God to sort all of this out in His own time.
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#29
(05-14-2017, 04:35 PM)maso Wrote: And is the fact that Francis is "universally accepted" as pope enough to have the guarantee that he is really the Pope?

Yes.

It's the near universal teaching of theologians that peaceful, universal acceptance of a man as Pope is a guarantee that he is truly Pope.

If you read the quotes from Van Noort and Hunter from the earlier posts you would see the explain for why : it is an act of the universal ordinary magisterium which is infallible. This is so because if the Church could not establish who was Pope it would undermine her visibility, and also undermine the foundation of infallibility.

I'd suggest a re-read of those quotes from before if you are interested in understanding the matter.

(05-14-2017, 04:35 PM)maso Wrote: http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.p...=3435790.0
... "At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death."  (Prophecy of St FRANCIS of Assisi)

But if you read the post and SaintSebastian's reply here, you would see that the "Prophecies of St. Francis" are questionable, at best.

In summary : The original English text from which it is taken is a translation from the German compilation in 1650. The preface to the English edition states that the German compiler grabbed many spurious works from secondary sources, and scholars believe the prophecy, if authentic, was accomplished in 1378 when there was a contentious election then an antipope (Clement VII). If spurious, it would very well fit into a Spiritualist (heretical Franciscan sect) narrative, for the spiritual were under St. Peter Celestine (V) granted leave to their excessive practices then condemned and excommunicated under Boniface VIII (who they regarded as an antipope).

So, the "prophecy" isn't as strong as it seems, even if it's accurate.

So, what exactly does worrying about all of this gain us, BTW? How are we closer to heaven for having started to question Benedict's resignation?
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#30
"So, what exactly does worrying about all of this gain us, BTW? How are we closer to heaven for having started to question Benedict's resignation ?"

Certainly knowing that probably a man who is uttering nonsenses, heresies, bullying of faithful catholics and praising of atheism or other religions everyday is not the true pope, would help me not to lose hope about the RCC sometimes.
A man who confided that he will have completed his job when the Church will be unrecognizable in an irreversible way, when he will have appointed enough cardinals (in fact modernist cardinals), this is not what the catholic believers may expect from a Pope to give them peace of mind to get closer to Heavens, certainly not.
I don't speak for myself since I don't hope to live more than 15 years from now, but for my children whom I educated in the Catholic Faith and whom I hope they will not led astray from their Faith by men of this pope's caliber.
The late cardinal Lienart who was one of the main actors of the council's derailing had these terrible words on his deathbed after he had confessed he was a freemason since long (and having allowed his confessor to reveal it): "Humanly speaking the Church is lost !"
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