Is it inherently scandalous to attend a Novus Ordo Mass?
#21
(05-16-2017, 08:30 AM)In His Love Wrote: Thank you, Jeeter. :)

(05-16-2017, 08:25 AM)BC Wrote: I saw again the new and odd-looking Church which they were trying to build.... People were kneading bread in the crypt below… but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of Our Lord, but only bread.
This can't be applied to the Novus Ordo. The Eucharist is legitimately confected at the Novus Ordo.

http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.p...=3471297.0

I think it could.  At the very least there is legitimate doubt whether at every N.O. the Eucharist is being legitimately confected.  Prescinding from the topic of the validity of the priest offering it due to grievously unwarranted tampering of the ordinal rite post Vatican II, in the New Mass, the following prayer replaces the Suscipe, Sancta Pater:

"Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life."

Michael Davies, in his book, Liturgical Revolution (Vol. 3), p.320, explained:

"This prayer is a combination of a prayer taken from the Jewish meal ritual and the concept of man’s work consecrated to the Lord, an idea which the Pope himself wanted to be expressed in some way at this point in the Mass.. . . this prayer is thus acceptable not simply to Protestants, but to Jews and would certainly fit in with the ethos of a Masonic hall."

The Talmudic Touch: THE REAL STORY OF THE OFFERTORY'S REPLACEMENT

http://catholictradition.org/Eucharist/roman-mass4.htm

The falsifying of the Mysterium Fidei as it was defined by "De Defectibus" issued in 1570 also presents problems.

Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, Head of the Holy Office, wrote in 1969:

Notes 29.As they appear in the context of the Novus Ordo, the words of Consecration could be valid in virtue of the priest's intention. But since their validity no longer comes from the force of the sacramental words themselves (ex vi verborum)--or more precisely, from the meaning (modus significandi) the old rite of the Mass gave to the formula--the words of Consecration in the New Order of Mass[i] could also not be valid. Will priests in the near future, who receive no traditional formation and who rely on the Novus Ordo for the intention of "doing what the Church does," validly consecrate at Mass? One may be allowed to doubt it. [/i] (The Ottaviani Intervention)

Priests formed in the Novus Ordo are not taught the mass as defined by Trent and given that the the Mass's sacrificial nature has been hollowed out in the N.O. , have not a true conception of what it is supposed to be. 

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#22
(05-16-2017, 10:18 AM)Jeeter Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 08:54 AM)GangGreen Wrote: Of course that quote could also apply to those who create their own break off churches in order to preserve tradition, and yet do not stay in union with the Pope. They believe they have the Eucharist but are in schism and instead are just eating bread. It could even pertain to something that occurs even after our time where a fake church breaks off from the real Church. Who knows? Many prophesies aren't clear as to what their meaning actually is and can be construed in so many ways.

Maybe it's just me, but that quote struck me as reflective of the continuing fragmentation of various protestant denominations; one Church was split into protestants, then further divided themselves into Anglicans, then Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, African Methodist Episcople, Seventh Day Adventists, all followed by further divisions within, now resulting in unaffiliated churches.

She is referring specifically to what is happening in Rome. She says elsewhere:

“I have been told to pray much for the Church and the Pope…The people must pray earnestly for the extirpation (rooting out) of the dark church.”

"They must pray above all for the Church of Darkness to leave Rome…”

https://veritas-vincit-international.org...two-popes/

What she is describing is this 5th column ecumenical "Church" taking over Rome and committing spiritual fornication with false religions (Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus) , welcoming and convergence of every false sect into the Vatican and out into the Catholic world.

[Image: th?id=OIP.Sbr7ic-ks8hYMUfMWXe6sAEsDS&pid...=255&h=179] [Image: th?id=OIP.lVV_8ENXdNNDgQ2TjcT1JgEsDI&pid...=255&h=171] [Image: th?id=OIP.4Dl1ompL-EZfPoslIsBKWwEsC7&pid...=280&h=176] [Image: th?id=OIP.fENqzSUPnU68cJG9z7LAOgEsDL&pid...=267&h=182]
[Image: th?id=OIP.GDtPIHc5-NMIuyECX-lAGAEsDk&pid...=212&h=162]

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#23
(05-16-2017, 01:00 PM)BC Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 10:18 AM)Jeeter Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 08:54 AM)GangGreen Wrote: Of course that quote could also apply to those who create their own break off churches in order to preserve tradition, and yet do not stay in union with the Pope. They believe they have the Eucharist but are in schism and instead are just eating bread. It could even pertain to something that occurs even after our time where a fake church breaks off from the real Church. Who knows? Many prophesies aren't clear as to what their meaning actually is and can be construed in so many ways.

Maybe it's just me, but that quote struck me as reflective of the continuing fragmentation of various protestant denominations; one Church was split into protestants, then further divided themselves into Anglicans, then Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, African Methodist Episcople, Seventh Day Adventists, all followed by further divisions within, now resulting in unaffiliated churches.

She is referring specifically to what is happening in Rome. She says elsewhere:

“I have been told to pray much for the Church and the Pope…The people must pray earnestly for the extirpation (rooting out) of the dark church.”

"They must pray above all for the Church of Darkness to leave Rome…”

https://veritas-vincit-international.org...two-popes/

What she is describing is this 5th column ecumenical "Church" taking over Rome and committing spiritual fornication with false religions (Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus) , welcoming and convergence of every false sect into the Vatican and out into the Catholic world.

Thanks.  I missed that little mention of Rome previously.  Darn this ADHD of mine. :)
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#24
(05-16-2017, 01:00 PM)BC Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 10:18 AM)Jeeter Wrote:
(05-16-2017, 08:54 AM)GangGreen Wrote: Of course that quote could also apply to those who create their own break off churches in order to preserve tradition, and yet do not stay in union with the Pope. They believe they have the Eucharist but are in schism and instead are just eating bread. It could even pertain to something that occurs even after our time where a fake church breaks off from the real Church. Who knows? Many prophesies aren't clear as to what their meaning actually is and can be construed in so many ways.

Maybe it's just me, but that quote struck me as reflective of the continuing fragmentation of various protestant denominations; one Church was split into protestants, then further divided themselves into Anglicans, then Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, African Methodist Episcople, Seventh Day Adventists, all followed by further divisions within, now resulting in unaffiliated churches.

She is referring specifically to what is happening in Rome. She says elsewhere:

“I have been told to pray much for the Church and the Pope…The people must pray earnestly for the extirpation (rooting out) of the dark church.”

"They must pray above all for the Church of Darkness to leave Rome…”

https://veritas-vincit-international.org...two-popes/

Given the timing, those prophecies likely deal with what happened shortly thereafter (as most non-public revelation prophecies do): the Roman revolution and republic of 1848 and the invasion and installation of Victor Emmanual in 1870. The Pope was driven out and had to abandon the Quirinal Palace first for Gaeta and later the Vatican.  Victor Emmanual replaced the Pope as King of Rome and took over the Quirinal Palace (remember, at the time the papacy was synonymous with this office--it really was like two popes in the minds of many--it's hard for us to appreciate the significance of the Pope being driven out of Rome proper and the king replacing him was for the people of the time--imagine the Pope being driven away and the president of Italy sitting on his throne in St. Peter's).  Plenty of clergy were complicit.  The prophecy about the bread that does not rise is distinct from the one about the invalid Eucharist--unfortunately Yves Dupont spliced them together in his famous book.  The first related to the actual Masonic lodge that had been established in Rome alongside these events and their naturalistic principles and the second explicitly to non-Catholic communities.

Here's a prior post I made showing how  Dupont mixed things up:
http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.p...sg33510964
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#25
(05-16-2017, 08:25 AM)BC Wrote: I say nothing one way or the other, but I think many would agree that the following, is nteresting.

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich's (d.1824) mystical vision of a new Church and a new Liturgy to come:

“I saw again the new and odd-looking Church which they were trying to build.... People were kneading bread in the crypt below… but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of Our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion.  Then, my Guide [Jesus] said: ‘THIS IS BABEL.’ [The Mass in many languages].

The above portion of the material is someone's fabrication.  It is found in Yves Dupont's book "Catholic Prophecy: The Coming Chastisement," but it is actually several quotes pieced together from various portions of the book "The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich."

Here is the complete explanation:

The quote above, found in "Catholic Prophecy," is patched together from Father Schmoger's two volume set entitled "The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich."

It is concocted from vastly different portions of the book as if it were one continuous quote, but it is not.  Here is how the quote is patched together:

"I saw again the new and odd-looking Church which they were trying to build. There was nothing holy about it . . . "

(Those words are taken from Volume 2, page 283, paragraph 2 of Father Schmoger's book.

"People were kneading bread in the crypt below . . . but it would not rise..."

(Those words are taken from page 283, paragraph 1.  Note that, in Father Schomoger's book, that portion of the quote comes before the portion starting "I saw again...")

"Nor did they receive the body of Our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion."

(Those words are taken from page 85, paragraph 1, almost 200 pages earlier.)

Then, my Guide [Jesus] said: 'THIS IS BABEL.'  [The Mass in many languages]."

(The first portion is taken from page 132, paragraph 1. The phrase "the Mass in many languages" is found nowhere at all in Father Schmoger's books.)

The portion beginning with "nor did they receive the Body of Our Lord" does not refer to the Catholic Church in Anne Catherine Emmerich's prophecies; she is referring to Protestant churches.

The full quote is: "I saw several churches or, rather, meeting houses surmounted by weather cocks, THE CONGREGATIONS DISUNITED FROM THE CHURCH, running here and there like beggars hurrying to places where bread is distributed, having no connection with either the Church Triumphant or the Church Suffering. They were not in a regularly founded, living Church, one with the Church Militant, Suffering, and Triumphant, NOR DID THEY RECEIVE THE BODY OF THE LORD, BUT ONLY BREAD. THOSE WHO WERE IN ERROR THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN AND WHO PIOUSLY AND ARDENTLY LONGED FOR THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST WERE SPIRITUALLY CONSOLED, BUT NOT BY THEIR COMMUNION."

The reference to "this is Babel" has nothing to do with the Mass; Sister Emmerich was speaking in that section about the situation in the country of Spain.

Page 131, the last portion, references Portugal. Then the following appears: "This country was pretty tranquil compared with that of Saint Ignatius, which I now entered and found in frightful misery. Darkness lay over the whole land where reposes the treasure of the saint's graces and merits."

She talks a little bit about being in "the central point," which I assume is Madrid, then states the following: "I saw unheard of abominations over the land, AND MY GUIDE SAID TO ME, THIS IS BABEL. I saw throughout the whole country a chain of secret societies with influences at work like those of Babel."

It wasn't a reference to the Mass.

The alleged quote from Father Schmoger's book, volume 2, begins with a portion of page 283, then proceeds to an earlier portion of page 283, then patches a part of page 85 into the quote, and ends with a portion of page 132.

The two volumes of Father Schmoger's book are online, and the above information can be verified at the link:

https://archive.org/stream/TheLifeAndRev...h_djvu.txt

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#26
(05-16-2017, 04:36 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: The prophecy about the bread that does not rise is distinct from the one about the invalid Eucharist--unfortunately Yves Dupont spliced them together in his famous book.  The first related to the actual Masonic lodge that had been established in Rome alongside these events and their naturalistic principles and the second explicitly to non-Catholic communities.
This makes sense. Also, the one about the bread that does not rise, if it could even remotely be tied to the Eucharist, would have to apply to those rites that use leavened bread. Most Catholic churches use bread that does not rise to begin with.

As for your point about doubtful confection of the Eucharist, BC, as long as the (validly ordained) priest uses the right matter and says, "This is my body"...as for the chalice:

"Disputes regarding the validity of the Novus Ordo form center on the words of consecration of the wine, not the bread. Theologians since the Middle Ages have debated what constitutes the essential form for the consecration of the chalice. Some argue that "This is the chalice of my blood" is sufficient, while others maintain that the rest of the form is necessary. Scholars themselves dispute what Aquinas's exact position on this matter was. "

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/...ecnum=6386

I don't think it's a good idea spiritually to think of the OF as doubtful with regard to consecrations of the Host and chalice unless you see a priest intentionally using a cookie or something and saying whatever he wants at the Consecration.
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