Which of the points of the Syllabus of Errors are defunct because of Vatican II?
#51
(05-18-2017, 09:34 AM)St. Camillus Wrote: D. M. Drew
Ss. Peter & Paul Roman Catholic Mission
York, PA

Could you share with us Fr. Drew's credentials as a theologian?
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#52
(05-16-2017, 10:30 PM)In His Love Wrote: St. Camillus, say you're an elderly person and you want Baptism. A priest has been called in to baptize you in your room of the nursing home. Your earthly life is gently ebbing away. You say prayers as you look at a crucifix you recently bought, eagerly looking forward to the moment the priest comes and gives you Baptism. By the time the priest arrives, you've died in your bed.

What is offensive about the concept of this man being saved despite not being baptized in water? God is not bound by His Sacraments.

Fr. James Wathen writes in Who Shall Ascend:

What will we say of the individual , who seems at the point of death, and desires to be baptized? He 'receives' 'baptism of desire." Suppose he survives, and abandons any further thought of seeking true Baptism. Did he "receive" this mythical non-sacrament? Were all his sins forgiven? We ask these questions not to be flippant, but to remind the reader of how ruminative is the human mind, and inconstant the human will. There is a very great difference between having the intention of doing something, or having the desire to do something, and actually doing it. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, but the road of Heaven requires something more substantial...How many 'saints' there are lying on sick beds: When they get well, they are doing to be altogether different. How many reformed criminals are behind bars: When they get out, they are going to be paragons of uprightness. How many clear-headed and resolute drunks and drug-addicts there are in rehabilitation clinics.

How many millions of people have 'considered' becoming Catholics, have 'decided' to become Catholics, have 'resolved' to enter the Church. But they have never gotten up the courage - or whatever - to walk into a Catholic church, or to knock on the rectory door. Even these gestures are preliminary to asking for instructions, faithfully showing up for these instructions for a number of weeks or months, making an effort to learn Catholic prayers, making sure they understand what the priest is trying to teach, renouncing one's heresies and repenting of one's sins. The day finally arrives when the catechumen is to enter the Church. He comes to the church with a few of his friends - perhaps, if he has any friends left, after he has announced what he is going to do! The priest has him kneel at the Communion rail and recite the Profession of Faith in which the following words are to be found:

http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/resources/...faith.html
Quote:...Moreover, without hesitation I accept and profess all that has been handed down, defined, and declared by the sacred canons and by the general councils, especially by the Sacred Council of Trent and by the Vatican General Council, and in special manner all that concerns the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. At the same time I condemn and reprove all that the Church has condemned and reproved. This same Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, I now freely profess and I truly adhere to it. With the help of God, I promise and swear to maintain and profess this faith entirely, inviolately, and with firm constancy until the last breath of life. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and publicly professed by all who depend on me and over whom I shall have charge.

Having made his profession of faith, the catechumen must usually (that is, if he has not been baptized) make his first confession, which for most converts is a daunting and a humbling experience. Finally, the individual is baptized...

All this one must do to enter the Church. And God requires that everyone do it. But from all this, those who insist that 'baptism of desire' is an alternative to the sacrament of Baptism, dispense non-Catholics from doing. They permit them simply to desire to be baptized, and to desire to be 'Christians' of some sort, and to desire to be Catholics. Thus do they become 'spiritual members' of the Church, with all its graces, and the right to Heaven besides.

http://fatherwathen.com/product/who-shal...lla-salus/
'If you succeed in bringing a single soul to heaven, what charity! what a gain! what glory to God!'

St. Paul of the Cross
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#53
"What will we say of the individual , who seems at the point of death, and desires to be baptized? He 'receives' 'baptism of desire." Suppose he survives, and abandons any further thought of seeking true Baptism"

This does not answer my question. "Suppose he survives" does not apply to a hypothetically deceased man.

To reiterate what I mentioned previously:

"Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.” (Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine)"

I don't know how you can read a quote like that by a Pope and a Saint, contained within a Catechism, and still claim that Baptism of Blood/Baptism of Desire don't happen.

You also have not addressed the case of St. Emerentiana, who was quite literally "baptized in her own blood."
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#54
(05-19-2017, 10:04 AM)In His Love Wrote: "What will we say of the individual , who seems at the point of death, and desires to be baptized? He 'receives' 'baptism of desire." Suppose he survives, and abandons any further thought of seeking true Baptism"

This does not answer my question. "Suppose he survives" does not apply to a hypothetically deceased man.

St. Augustine teaches that there are no unforeseen accidents within God's unlimited Providence and He is in complete control: : “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’  (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

"Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the sacrament of the mediator." - St. Augustine

Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life:

Q. Are there any such souls?
A. I do not know! Neither do you!
Q. What are we to say to those who believe there are such souls?
A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.



Fr. James Wathen, I Know Mine and Mine Know Me:

"The idea that an individual died before he was able to receive the sacrament of Baptism is equally curious, because it is God who determines how long each of us shall live to the second. And it is God Who in His most benevolent providence grants Baptism to everyone who receives it."

Prophecy of Ven. Bartholomew Holzhauser:
Quote:They will ridicule Christian simplicity; they will call it folly and. nonsense, but they will have the highest regard for advanced knowledge, and for the skill by which the axioms of the law, the precepts of morality, the Holy Canons and religious dogmas are clouded by senseless questions and elaborate arguments. As a result, no principle at. all, however holy, authentic, ancient, and certain it may be, will remain free of censure, criticism, false interpretation, modification, and delimitation by man


'If you succeed in bringing a single soul to heaven, what charity! what a gain! what glory to God!'

St. Paul of the Cross
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#55
You still have not addressed St. Emerentiana being martyred before she could receive water Baptism or Pope St. Pius X including BoB and BoD in his Catechism if they supposedly are not to be believed. If they were not to be believed, that section of the Catechism where it says, "Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way," should simply read, "A. No." But it doesn't. It quite literally refers to BoB and BoD.
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#56
(05-19-2017, 09:37 AM)St. Camillus Wrote: Having made his profession of faith, the catechumen must usually (that is, if he has not been baptized) make his first confession, which for most converts is a daunting and a humbling experience. Finally, the individual is baptized...

I hope that's a mis-statement because if not it would be heresy.

A non-baptized Catechumen does not and cannot receive the sacrament of Penance before Baptism, for two reasons :

1. The Sacrament of Penance is not valid (thus a grave sacrilege ) for someone who is not Baptized.

2. The Sacrament of Baptism remits original sin and all actual sin previously committed. That's precisely why it became the a vicious custom in St. Augustine's day to delay Baptism until near death (Cf. His Confessions). Thus one who is just Baptized as an adult has no sins to confess. Sins committed before Baptism would not be valid matter for confession.

To assert that one must Sacramentally confess his sins before Baptism is to assert a false, heretical, and sacrilegious notion.

To assert that one to be Baptized must make a non-sacramental confession is to unduly burden the Catechumen and make the sacrament odious. The Church has never demanded this, and no good priest would ever presume to put such a burden on someone. It wouldn't be an heretical notion, but the height of stupidity.
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#57
(05-18-2017, 11:01 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 09:34 AM)St. Camillus Wrote: D. M. Drew
Ss. Peter & Paul Roman Catholic Mission
York, PA

Could you share with us Fr. Drew's credentials as a theologian?

I'll repost this to give you another chance, since you've ignored it.

You've quoted this "D. M. Drew" who seems to speak as if he were a priest or theological expert from "Ss. Peter & Paul Roman Catholic Mission, York, PA".

My understanding was that Fr. Samuel Waters (a man I know personally) was the priest at that "Independent" chapel.

So who is this "D. M. Drew" and precisely what business does he have making theological pronouncements? Is he a priest? If not is he a layman, and what are his theological credentials?

Given he takes issue and claims false a Magisterial document (The 1949 Holy Office decree) that received approval from Pope Pius XII in modo specifico making it an act of Pope Pius XII himself -- a document that one can find in the post 1949 editions of the Denziger), and prefers to quote Fr. Waten and Fr. Feeney (an excommunicate) to argue with the Magisterium, I suspect he's not had any theological training.

So, care to enlighten us?
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#58
(05-20-2017, 10:28 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 11:01 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 09:34 AM)St. Camillus Wrote: D. M. Drew
Ss. Peter & Paul Roman Catholic Mission
York, PA

Could you share with us Fr. Drew's credentials as a theologian?

I'll repost this to give you another chance, since you've ignored it.

You've quoted this "D. M. Drew" who seems to speak as if he were a priest or theological expert from "Ss. Peter & Paul Roman Catholic Mission, York, PA".

My understanding was that Fr. Samuel Waters (a man I know personally) was the priest at that "Independent" chapel.

So who is this "D. M. Drew" and precisely what business does he have making theological pronouncements? Is he a priest? If not is he a layman, and what are his theological credentials?

Given he takes issue and claims false a Magisterial document (The 1949 Holy Office decree) that received approval from Pope Pius XII in modo specifico making it an act of Pope Pius XII himself -- a document that one can find in the post 1949 editions of the Denziger), and prefers to quote Fr. Waten and Fr. Feeney (an excommunicate) to argue with the Magisterium, I suspect he's not had any theological training.

So, care to enlighten us?

Magister Musicae,

If you browsed the website http://www.saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/about_us.htm you would know that Mr. Drew is not a priest and has never claimed to be a priest. Nor does he claim on the website to have any "credentials as a theologian."

Will you now answer my question? Suppose you were Pope and you wanted to say, in a way that no one could squirm out of, that there is absolutely no salvation outside the Church. Could you put it more clearly, more strongly than it is in these statements?

Pope Innocent III, at the Fourth Lateran Ecumenical Council, in the year 1215, speaking infallibly, “There is only one universal Church of the faithful and outside of it none at all can be saved.”

Pope Boniface VIII, in his bull, Unam Sanctam, dated 1302, speaking infallibly, “We declare, say, define and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Eugene IV, in his bull, Cantate Domino, dated 1441, speaking infallibly, “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire, ‘which was prepared for the Devil and his angels,’ unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety, and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
'If you succeed in bringing a single soul to heaven, what charity! what a gain! what glory to God!'

St. Paul of the Cross
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#59
(05-19-2017, 11:39 AM)In His Love Wrote: You still have not addressed St. Emerentiana being martyred before she could receive water Baptism or Pope St. Pius X including BoB and BoD in his Catechism if they supposedly are not to be believed. If they were not to be believed, that section of the Catechism where it says, "Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way," should simply read, "A. No." But it doesn't. It quite literally refers to BoB and BoD.

I believe that St. Emerentiana and all of the martyrs who died for the true faith were baptized before their martyrdoms.

Pope St. Pius X wrote in his encyclical Acerbo Nimis, "We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect." Liberal Catholics today are using the theory of "baptism of desire" in a novel sense to say that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. can be saved without converting to the Catholic faith. I think that Pope St. Pius X would have given the theory a closer look had he witnessed "baptism of desire" being used in this way.
'If you succeed in bringing a single soul to heaven, what charity! what a gain! what glory to God!'

St. Paul of the Cross
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#60
(05-20-2017, 10:17 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I hope that's a mis-statement because if not it would be heresy.

Your accusations of "heresy" are meaningless because you believe that not only heretics, but also Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc. can be saved as long as they don't know any better and are sincere. The Novus Ordo church does nothing to protect its members from heresy precisely because they believe, like you, that one does not have to hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate to be saved.

As Fr. James Wathen wrote in Who Shall Ascend, "It is important that the reader who thinks he disagrees with the literal reading of these decrees [on no salvation outside the Church] not throw his hands up in indignation and put this book aside with the exclamation of "Heresy!" It should be obvious that the reason Catholics, himself included, regard heresy with such horror and alarm is this very doctrine. For if there is salvation outside the Church, what difference does it make whether one is in the Church or out of it, whether one is a heretic in the judgment of the Church or not? Really, if to deny this doctrine [no salvation outside the Church] is not heresy, there is no such thing as heresy, and it would have been pointless, as well as illogical, for the Church to attach such severe censures to the denial of this or any other doctrine."
'If you succeed in bringing a single soul to heaven, what charity! what a gain! what glory to God!'

St. Paul of the Cross
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