Refugees in Germany Converting to Christianity Despite Death Threats
#1
Here's hoping they find their way into the Catholic Church instead of the protestant ecclesial bodies.

From Church Militant:

"BERLIN (ChurchMilitant.com) -  Ex-Muslim refugees in Germany are converting to Christianity despite extreme persecution and death threats leveled by Muslims.

Christians are telling stories of mistreatment, threats and outright attacks from Muslims in the camps, as well as from camp officials. A 1.1 million-refugee influx in 2015 led to hastily constructed camps that are now largely empty owing to Germany's limits on immigration. Despite fewer refugees, attacks are increasing in frequency.

Many of these refugees are converts from Islam brought in by other Christians and are of Iranian and Afghan descent. "Many were also in private, house-held congregations in Iran or were touched by the Christian faith during their escape journey," explains Gottfried Martens, a pastor at the Protestant Trinity independent church in Berlin, who began ministering to the refugees in 2008, when he had his first request for baptism from an aquaintance of two Christian refugees. "

More here:

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/arti...th-threats
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#2
Quote:Here's hoping they find their way into the Catholic Church instead of the protestant ecclesial bodies.

I thought the "Catholic" Church in Germany was a protestant ecclesial body?  ??? :LOL:

No, in all seriousness, this is great. I can't help but feel that if there were more Catholics in Germany willing to go out and preach to these folks, you be seeing conversions on the thousands, even the hundreds of thousands.  Most of what keeps Muslims in their religion is servile fear of death.  If you can promise them safety and protection and preach the Gospel, then you would see conversions in the untold numbers.
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#3
Some Muslims are kept in their religion by a servile fear of death, but that's not the whole picture. The more I've studied Islam the more I see that at least in the realm of ideas and traditions it is quite rich and robust and offers pretty much an all encompassing world view.

It's true that most schools of Islamic law allow for death to apostates,but it's fairly rare in practice. When it does happen it's usually a grassroots affair,where Muslims take it upon themselves to kill someone, without fully knowing the facts or without going through the rigor of following the sharia the way it should be followed. Besides, even if death is the punishment for apostasy it's for a reason- -because a Muslim turned Christian or whatever disrupts the whole society- -the same way heresy and heretics disrupted it in the middle ages.  Islam never had a Dignitatis Humanae moment when all of a sudden religious pluralism became an acceptable ideal. At least ideally Islam still lives by the notion that "error has no rights".

As for muslims converting, I imagine some are sincere,but I think it's legitimate to wonder whether there is anywhere they can convert where they get the all encompassing worldview of ancient Christianity.  it certainly does not exist integrally outside traditional monasteries, old world,old calendar Orthodox or trad groups mostly estranged from the mainstream Catholic Church.  This is quite dire actually.

We also have to remember that any diehard practicing Muslim that truly converts has to overcome extreme hurdles to become Christian, as both anti ecclesial,anti Trinitarianism and a repugnance of the idea of the Incarnation are literally deep set into the very air the Muslim world breathes in. Any TRUE conversion,considering the social, doctrinal and dogmatic hurdles they face is truly miraculous.

Pray deeply that true,integral Christian culture is restored, so that these Muslims may have a true alternative to the all encompassing socio political worldview of traditional Islam. 
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#4
(05-18-2017, 08:44 AM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote:
Quote:Here's hoping they find their way into the Catholic Church instead of the protestant ecclesial bodies.

I thought the "Catholic" Church in Germany was a protestant ecclesial body?  ??? :LOL:

No, in all seriousness, this is great. I can't help but feel that if there were more Catholics in Germany willing to go out and preach to these folks, you be seeing conversions on the thousands, even the hundreds of thousands.  Most of what keeps Muslims in their religion is servile fear of death.  If you can promise them safety and protection and preach the Gospel, then you would see conversions in the untold numbers.

If we were talking hundreds of years ago during the height of Christendom with so many great preachers, if such a migration occurred, there probably would have been conversions by the thousands even hundreds of thousands. In those times, a thing like this would have never happened since any invasion of Muslims would have been a declaration of war rather than this internal state supported invasion.
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#5
(05-18-2017, 11:25 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Some Muslims are kept in their religion by a servile fear of death, but that's not the whole picture. The more I've studied Islam the more I see that at least in the realm of ideas and traditions it is quite rich and robust and offers pretty much an all encompassing world view.

Not to digress too much, but I do find it interesting that the recent manifestation of militant Islam, while maybe the more "orthodox" version, was not always pervasive in all places, at least as far as cultural dress goes.

Here is the Bin Laden family in the 1970's. They look like the Arabic version of the Partridge family. ( I know this is a recent Westernized aberration)

[Image: th?id=OIP.GQJxQ_c76OVKvppIgz43MQEsEs&pid...=300&h=300]

Egypt and other Muslim countries, before the modern terror resurgence, looked different, a little less repressive.

[Image: 12524061_979321085468490_737136889919667...1453929701]
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#6
Just do a Google images search on "Iran before revolution" and what you'll see is very similar to what fashion in the US looked at the time. I think many of those middle eastern countries were becoming more secular until the revolution of the 70s. Besides that, I have very little idea of how Arabs dressed in medieval time or even in the times prior to the middle 20th century. I'm sure there's stuff out there, but who knows how accurate it is and I really have no desire to research it  :LOL:.
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#7
(05-18-2017, 12:12 PM)BC Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 11:25 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Some Muslims are kept in their religion by a servile fear of death, but that's not the whole picture. The more I've studied Islam the more I see that at least in the realm of ideas and traditions it is quite rich and robust and offers pretty much an all encompassing world view.

Not to digress too much, but I do find it interesting that the recent manifestation of militant Islam, while maybe the more "orthodox" version, was not always pervasive in all places, at least as far as cultural dress goes.

Here is the Bin Laden family in the 1970's. They look like the Arabic version of the Partridge family. ( I know this is a recent Westernized aberration)

[Image: th?id=OIP.GQJxQ_c76OVKvppIgz43MQEsEs&pid...=300&h=300]

Egypt and other Muslim countries, before the modern terror resurgence, looked different, a little less repressive.

[Image: 12524061_979321085468490_737136889919667...1453929701]

Ha! They do look like the Partridge Family.  It's an acceptable digression.  The militant Islam we see today is mostly of the Salafi/Wahabbi  variety which is only one of many.  This is the version of Sunni Islam promoted by the modern Saudis, and the version of groups like ISIS. As you correctly point out global Islam was not always so puritanical or fundamentalist.


Honestly I despised Islam but after trying to really learn about it I no longer have the same visceral hatred, nor do I lump them altogether under the same umbrella.  Honestly I pray that aside from the restoration of an integral Christian culture, the end of puritanical Salafist Islam.  I would never become Muslim nor do I particularly think Muslim immigration en mass is appropriate, but I don't think we can lump them all in the same Wahabbi umbrella. 

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#8
I know many religious muslims (most of the muslims, especially the turks do not practise islam) here in Germany, I even studied islamic theology for a few months (but I could not find the time to continue) and I really appreciate their rigor. The muslims I know are really virtuous and serious people. It would be a great benefit for the Church if she could evangelize them. They have exactly the mental framework that is needed to become a good, traditional christian....but here is the problem: imagine a sincere muslim, who is praying five times each day, he starts reading the Bible, starts believing that Christ is God and then he risks going for the first time in his life in a church...and then it's the typical NO-mass.
I absolutely believe that it would be relatively easy to convert most of the muslims because the inner weakness of their religion is easily demonstrated but the mental distance between a traditional muslim (I do not mean the salafists) and the vast majority of post-Vatican II christians is nearly infinite.
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#9
(05-18-2017, 12:25 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: (...)Honestly I despised Islam but after trying to really learn about it I no longer have the same visceral hatred, nor do I lump them altogether under the same umbrella.  Honestly I pray that aside from the restoration of an integral Christian culture, the end of puritanical Salafist Islam.  I would never become Muslim nor do I particularly think Muslim immigration en mass is appropriate, but I don't think we can lump them all in the same Wahabbi umbrella.
I do not see any possibility not to despise Islam. Isn't it sufficient to study the life of Mohammed to judge the religion he founded? Isn't it clear that he was possessed? He was inspired by some entity to pronounce a message that is absolutely anti-christian, especially anti-trinitarian.  Islam the spiritual prison of millions of people and a serious threat to christians all over the world.
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#10
(05-18-2017, 01:15 PM)Guingamp Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 12:25 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: (...)Honestly I despised Islam but after trying to really learn about it I no longer have the same visceral hatred, nor do I lump them altogether under the same umbrella.  Honestly I pray that aside from the restoration of an integral Christian culture, the end of puritanical Salafist Islam.  I would never become Muslim nor do I particularly think Muslim immigration en mass is appropriate, but I don't think we can lump them all in the same Wahabbi umbrella.
I do not see any possibility not to despise Islam. Isn't it sufficient to study the life of Mohammed to judge the religion he founded? Isn't it clear that he was possessed? He was inspired by some entity to pronounce a message that is absolutely anti-christian, especially anti-trinitarian.  Islam the spiritual prison of millions of people and a serious threat to christians all over the world.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Muhammad was possessed. He himself was afraid he might be. Also, his experience of rolling on the ground and foaming at the mouth after meeting "Gabriel" is textbook possession as recorded in the New Testament. Our Lady didn't have an experience like that because she met the real Gabriel. Ditto Zechariah.

Islam is one of those religions I find so troubling in terms of its core beliefs that (and I know this isn't going to happen, it's just a hypothetical situation) if I were to die and meet God and He said to me, "I am Allah and Muhammad is my messenger," I wouldn't want to stay in Islamic heaven even if I were given the option. It's too gruesome a religion. If you leave Islam, it's written that you should be killed. Gays get thrown off the tops of tall buildings. There's female genital mutilation, fatwa-approved necrophilia, fatwa-approved bestiality, Qur'an-supported wife beating, and the infamous "Muhammad married a six year old and consummated the marriage when she was nine" thing.

And then there's stuff like this, emphasis mine:

"Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?' Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17"

"(Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.'  But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...1"

"Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "

I know it's not PC, but the whole religion gives me the creeps.
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