What is your personal opinion about private revelations?
#11
I find them interesting. I try to follow the message of Fatima when it comes to praying the Rosary and wearing the Scapular, but I haven't done any First Friday/First Saturday devotions or anything like that. Most importantly for me, I follow along with the Mass, keep the Jesus Prayer close, and try to get at least one Rosary in a day. God sustains me very well through those things.
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#12
In dealing with private revelations one needs discernment and good spiritual direction.
It is very easy to fool ones self especially if one has an active imagination. The Devil can also fool us because he sees how many people are interested in private revelations. Every now and then God will reveal Himself to someone. This is why good spiritual direction is so important.
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#13
(06-28-2017, 01:43 PM)JosefSilouan Wrote: It is very true that Christians shouldn't give to much heed to individual private revelations (see my previous post).

However, the fact that there is such a thing as private revelations is very important. Imagine if no single person in Catholic history ever had had a private revelation. No Rosary. No devotion to the Sacred Heart. No Lourdes. No Fatima. No Guadaloupe. No Miraculous Medals. No Leonine Prayer to St. Michael. No commandment "Rebuild my Church" to St. Francis. No "Dialogues" by St Catherine. No "Imitation of the Christ" by Thomas a Kempis.

We believe in the living God who reminds us occasionally that he really "is with us until the end of time" (Mt 28:20) Private revelations, if approved by the magisterium, can remember us of this fact.

Hmm that is a good point. There are many private revelations that I do believe without much question, things like when God responded to St. Arsenius after he had asked the Lord to lead him in the way of salvation. I believe that Constantine had a vision at Milvian Bridge. Or that St. Mary of Egypt was truly unable to enter the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. These sorts of "revelations" I've never had an issue with believing in, while something like Fatima and the like I am more cautious of.
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#14
(06-29-2017, 05:27 PM)Florus Wrote:
(06-28-2017, 01:43 PM)JosefSilouan Wrote: It is very true that Christians shouldn't give to much heed to individual private revelations (see my previous post).

However, the fact that there is such a thing as private revelations is very important. Imagine if no single person in Catholic history ever had had a private revelation. No Rosary. No devotion to the Sacred Heart. No Lourdes. No Fatima. No Guadaloupe. No Miraculous Medals. No Leonine Prayer to St. Michael. No commandment "Rebuild my Church" to St. Francis. No "Dialogues" by St Catherine. No "Imitation of the Christ" by Thomas a Kempis.

We believe in the living God who reminds us occasionally that he really "is with us until the end of time" (Mt 28:20) Private revelations, if approved by the magisterium, can remember us of this fact.

Hmm that is a good point. There are many private revelations that I do believe without much question, things like when God responded to St. Arsenius after he had asked the Lord to lead him in the way of salvation. I believe that Constantine had a vision at Milvian Bridge. Or that St. Mary of Egypt was truly unable to enter the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. These sorts of "revelations" I've never had an issue with believing in, while something like Fatima and the like I am more cautious of.

I think for me it's a distinction between believing that miraculous events happen (I do believe this and think it has happened many times in the history of the Church) and visions that prescribe certain devotional practices (I admit to some skepticism). If particular practices are so intimately connected with salvation, like scapulars or the Rosary, why weren't they known in the first millennium? Why aren't they part of public revelation? I am skeptical of any practice that distracts from the historic and unbroken teaching of the Scriptures practiced in the Church east and west that prayer, fasting, and almsgiving coupled with a pure, charitable heart are the way to salvation. I do not deny any approved private revelation occurred; they simply don't figure into my devotional life.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
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#15
[quote pid='1346823' dateline='1498793840']
(06-29-2017, 05:27 PM)Florus Wrote:
(06-28-2017, 01:43 PM)JosefSilouan Wrote: It is very true that Christians shouldn't give to much heed to individual private revelations (see my previous post).

However, the fact that there is such a thing as private revelations is very important. Imagine if no single person in Catholic history ever had had a private revelation. No Rosary. No devotion to the Sacred Heart. No Lourdes. No Fatima. No Guadaloupe. No Miraculous Medals. No Leonine Prayer to St. Michael. No commandment "Rebuild my Church" to St. Francis. No "Dialogues" by St Catherine. No "Imitation of the Christ" by Thomas a Kempis.

We believe in the living God who reminds us occasionally that he really "is with us until the end of time" (Mt 28:20) Private revelations, if approved by the magisterium, can remember us of this fact.

Hmm that is a good point. There are many private revelations that I do believe without much question, things like when God responded to St. Arsenius after he had asked the Lord to lead him in the way of salvation. I believe that Constantine had a vision at Milvian Bridge. Or that St. Mary of Egypt was truly unable to enter the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. These sorts of "revelations" I've never had an issue with believing in, while something like Fatima and the like I am more cautious of.

I think for me it's a distinction between believing that miraculous events happen (I do believe this and think it has happened many times in the history of the Church) and visions that prescribe certain devotional practices (I admit to some skepticism). If particular practices are so intimately connected with salvation, like scapulars or the Rosary, why weren't they known in the first millennium? Why aren't they part of public revelation? I am skeptical of any practice that distracts from the historic and unbroken teaching of the Scriptures practiced in the Church east and west that prayer, fasting, and almsgiving coupled with a pure, charitable heart are the way to salvation. I do not deny any approved private revelation occurred; they simply don't figure into my devotional life.
[/quote]

The responses in this thread are quite interesting since so much of popular Catholic culture these days is based on private revelation. Of course all of these things involve prayer and penance, so they are in accordance with Church teachings, but we still know that praying of the Rosary, for example, is practically the quintessential Catholic prayer today. Add in the stuff with Fatima that still has so many people talking about it. You don't see many Fatima events that go empty. How many Catholics wear their brown scapulars? This stuff is everywhere. 

I think one has to be careful to say that all of these devotions and such are so intimately connected with salvation. No one is required to pray the Rosary, wear the Scapular, be devoted to the Sacred Heart or any of those other things. All of those devotions are given if anything to help keep people on track. Fr. Ripperger for example talks about how people should spend at least 15 minutes a day in prayer to satisfy justice and even longer to satisfy charity. How many people actually do that without praying some devotional like the Rosary? The Rosary is such a basic prayer that gives people an entryway into metal prayer/meditation. Same can be said for many of these other devotions if practiced to their fullest.

At the very minimum all of these private revelations help keep people on track and show people that God still reaches out to people in a similar way like He did to the prophets before Christ, however, today it's done to reiterate what Our Lord taught for a new generation and the consequences of men not following Him. There are some saints that are given all sorts of different visions and who knows what we're to make of them, not even they can fully comprehend the heavenly mysteries.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
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#16
(06-30-2017, 02:31 AM)GangGreen Wrote: I think one has to be careful to say that all of these devotions and such are so intimately connected with salvation. No one is required to pray the Rosary, wear the Scapular, be devoted to the Sacred Heart or any of those other things. All of those devotions are given if anything to help keep people on track. Fr. Ripperger for example talks about how people should spend at least 15 minutes a day in prayer to satisfy justice and even longer to satisfy charity. How many people actually do that without praying some devotional like the Rosary? The Rosary is such a basic prayer that gives people an entryway into metal prayer/meditation. Same can be said for many of these other devotions if practiced to their fullest.

The devotions don't themselves present themselves as necessary for salvation, but they certainly make promises, don't they? "Whoever dies wearing the brown scapular...", the nine First Fridays promise, the five First Saturdays promise — these all make explicit salvific promises based on practicing certain devotions. Obviously these can be understood in an orthodox way; I'm not suggesting they can't be. But they are not a replacement for prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. There is an attitude in some quarters that if you don't  practice these things, you're not "really" Catholic, or worse — a convert!
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
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#17
(06-30-2017, 10:17 AM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(06-30-2017, 02:31 AM)GangGreen Wrote: I think one has to be careful to say that all of these devotions and such are so intimately connected with salvation. No one is required to pray the Rosary, wear the Scapular, be devoted to the Sacred Heart or any of those other things. All of those devotions are given if anything to help keep people on track. Fr. Ripperger for example talks about how people should spend at least 15 minutes a day in prayer to satisfy justice and even longer to satisfy charity. How many people actually do that without praying some devotional like the Rosary? The Rosary is such a basic prayer that gives people an entryway into metal prayer/meditation. Same can be said for many of these other devotions if practiced to their fullest.

The devotions don't themselves present themselves as necessary for salvation, but they certainly make promises, don't they? "Whoever dies wearing the brown scapular...", the nine First Fridays promise, the five First Saturdays promise — these all make explicit salvific promises based on practicing certain devotions. Obviously these can be understood in an orthodox way; I'm not suggesting they can't be. But they are not a replacement for prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. There is an attitude in some quarters that if you don't  practice these things, you're not "really" Catholic, or worse — a convert!

The promises do seem like quite a lot, but all of these devotions include prayer at the bare minimum. If someone prays the Rosary daily for their entire life, they theoretically should be striving to also live a good life along side it, otherwise all that prayer and meditation would seem like a big waste of time, no? Someone wears the Brown Scapular, that's a pretty big deal especially if someone also carries out all that goes along with it. 

The first Friday and Saturday devotions always confused me since there's never really a certain amount of time linked to them besides 9 consecutive months and 5 months. Is it supposed to be 9 months and 5 months each year? Once in a person's lifetime? It kind of confuses me. Also, it seems like so little to be done compared to the promises attached to them, but who am I to question God and His Mother? They're nice devotions and would certainly make more sense if they were to be executed year round on the first Friday/Saturday. Maybe someone who knows more about those things can make more sense of it than I can.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
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#18
(06-30-2017, 12:27 PM)GangGreen Wrote:
(06-30-2017, 10:17 AM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(06-30-2017, 02:31 AM)GangGreen Wrote: I think one has to be careful to say that all of these devotions and such are so intimately connected with salvation. No one is required to pray the Rosary, wear the Scapular, be devoted to the Sacred Heart or any of those other things. All of those devotions are given if anything to help keep people on track. Fr. Ripperger for example talks about how people should spend at least 15 minutes a day in prayer to satisfy justice and even longer to satisfy charity. How many people actually do that without praying some devotional like the Rosary? The Rosary is such a basic prayer that gives people an entryway into metal prayer/meditation. Same can be said for many of these other devotions if practiced to their fullest.

The devotions don't themselves present themselves as necessary for salvation, but they certainly make promises, don't they? "Whoever dies wearing the brown scapular...", the nine First Fridays promise, the five First Saturdays promise — these all make explicit salvific promises based on practicing certain devotions. Obviously these can be understood in an orthodox way; I'm not suggesting they can't be. But they are not a replacement for prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. There is an attitude in some quarters that if you don't  practice these things, you're not "really" Catholic, or worse — a convert!

The promises do seem like quite a lot, but all of these devotions include prayer at the bare minimum. If someone prays the Rosary daily for their entire life, they theoretically should be striving to also live a good life along side it, otherwise all that prayer and meditation would seem like a big waste of time, no? Someone wears the Brown Scapular, that's a pretty big deal especially if someone also carries out all that goes along with it. 

The first Friday and Saturday devotions always confused me since there's never really a certain amount of time linked to them besides 9 consecutive months and 5 months. Is it supposed to be 9 months and 5 months each year? Once in a person's lifetime? It kind of confuses me. Also, it seems like so little to be done compared to the promises attached to them, but who am I to question God and His Mother? They're nice devotions and would certainly make more sense if they were to be executed year round on the first Friday/Saturday. Maybe someone who knows more about those things can make more sense of it than I can.

To the bolded portion, I agree, especially compared to the holy men and women of antiquity who fled to the deserts of Egypt and lived lives of astonishing mortification in the hopes they could narrowly escape damnation. Why do we get it so easy now?
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
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#19
I don't know that it's easier today and we can't say that those who fled to the deserts narrowly escaped damnation (even if in their minds they believed they did while on earth). None of us know for sure. One could possibly say that the reward for those people was greater in Heaven, however, beyond that I have no clue.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
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