Catholic Charismatic Renewal - Movement
#11
(07-20-2017, 02:10 PM)BC Wrote: 4. Cause feelings of consolation and tenderness.

5. Instantaneously cure strange sicknesses that were caused by diabolical influence. Tertullian wryly notes that these were not authentic sicknesses in the first place, and the Devil really doesn’t cure – he just ceases to torment the individual. This is why even miracles worked in the causes of Saints had to be so carefully examined.

I'm a little concerned by #4.  Feelings of consolation and tenderness that don't come from oneself should presumably always come from God or a good source, since consolation and tenderness are inherently good things.  If demons can even create an authentic replication of supernatural consolation, it becomes absolutely impossible to determine whether a supernatural experience is of divine or demonic origin.  It means that, beyond what our senses can tell us, our very use of reason is not trustworthy.  Any perception of reality beyond what can be derived empirically would be truly indiscernible, and at best we could only be agnostic of the supernatural.  This is extremely troubling.

#5 makes sense out of why there are no healed amputations at Lourdes and other miraculous healing sites, although the implications are discouraging for those devoted to them.
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#12
I remember hearing a story told by one of the Church Militant staff about a woman who was speaking in tongues at a meeting. There was a man there who was an expert in certain languages. He asked her [paraphrasing], "Do you know what you were saying?" She said, "No, this is a gift from God." He said, "You were blaspheming God in Aramaic and Ancient Greek."

Herein lies one of the dangers of saying things you have no interpretation for.

" #5 makes sense out of why there are no healed amputations at Lourdes and other miraculous healing sites, although the implications are discouraging for those devoted to them."

Lourdes has had some pretty profound miracles, though (healing of blind people, wheel-chair bound people, etc).

Also, I'm very glad you're leaning more towards Catholicism than Deism, Melkite. That's exciting. :)
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#13
(07-20-2017, 03:14 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-20-2017, 02:10 PM)BC Wrote: 4. Cause feelings of consolation and tenderness.

5. Instantaneously cure strange sicknesses that were caused by diabolical influence. Tertullian wryly notes that these were not authentic sicknesses in the first place, and the Devil really doesn’t cure – he just ceases to torment the individual. This is why even miracles worked in the causes of Saints had to be so carefully examined.

I'm a little concerned by #4.  Feelings of consolation and tenderness that don't come from oneself should presumably always come from God or a good source, since consolation and tenderness are inherently good things.  If demons can even create an authentic replication of supernatural consolation, it becomes absolutely impossible to determine whether a supernatural experience is of divine or demonic origin.  It means that, beyond what our senses can tell us, our very use of reason is not trustworthy.  Any perception of reality beyond what can be derived empirically would be truly indiscernible, and at best we could only be agnostic of the supernatural.  This is extremely troubling.

#5 makes sense out of why there are no healed amputations at Lourdes and other miraculous healing sites, although the implications are discouraging for those devoted to them.

Well we cannot also jump to the conclusion that just because the Devil might be working some things , means God is not working true miracles somewhere on someone.  That is where the whole "discernment of spirits" comes into play that the saints and mystics discuss.  

Lourdes, being doctrinally sound and St. Bernadette producing the good fruits of true humility and sanctity, can be safely associated with true healings and miracles. 

As to why God does not restore whole limbs of amputations, that would be another subject altogether I suppose.
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#14
(07-20-2017, 03:36 PM)In His Love Wrote: I remember hearing a story told by one of the Church Militant staff about a woman who was speaking in tongues at a meeting. There was a man there who was an expert in certain languages. He asked her [paraphrasing], "Do you know what you were saying?" She said, "No, this is a gift from God." He said, "You were blaspheming God in Aramaic and Ancient Greek."

Herein lies one of the dangers of saying things you have no interpretation for.

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#15
(07-20-2017, 03:49 PM)BC Wrote: Well we cannot also jump to the conclusion that just because the Devil might be working some things , means God is not working true miracles somewhere on someone.  That is where the whole "discernment of spirits" comes into play that the saints and mystics discuss.  

Lourdes, being doctrinally sound and St. Bernadette producing the good fruits of true humility and sanctity, can be safely associated with true healings and miracles. 

I don't mean that God could not or does not work true miracles.  I just meant that if the Devil can even replicate good things in a way that is not rationally discernible, it is impossible to ever know what is from God and what is not.  Discernment of spirits?  But the Devil can mimic good, so how can you trust your discernment?  You just have faith that your discernment is accurate?  Is that the same faith the charismatics have that their speaking in tongues actually comes from God?  

If the Devil can mimic good things like consolation and kindness, why can't he mimic humility and sanctity, or oppress people in a hidden way while speaking the Truth?
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#16
(07-20-2017, 03:51 PM)BC Wrote:

My experience at a healing mass was the most plainly supernatural thing I have ever experience, and in a way that cannot be verbalized, the love, peace and joy I experience was realer than real.  I will not say that the Devil cannot mimic that, but if he can, it is utterly impossible for me to know with any certainty that I am ever experiencing God.  The Church's discernment would be worthless, because if the Devil can come up with such a compelling facsimile, not even the Church could truly say for sure that it is either of God or the Devil.

I mean this with utmost respect to the Church and its authority, but if Satan's powers are so great that he can recreate something that can only be good for the purpose of deception, how could one even begin to believe the Church is immune to such deception, other than wishful thinking on the part of those placing their trust in the Church?
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#17
(07-20-2017, 04:23 PM)Melkite Wrote: My experience at a healing mass was the most plainly supernatural thing I have ever experience, and in a way that cannot be verbalized, the love, peace and joy I experience was realer than real.  I will not say that the Devil cannot mimic that, but if he can, it is utterly impossible for me to know with any certainty that I am ever experiencing God.  The Church's discernment would be worthless, because if the Devil can come up with such a compelling facsimile, not even the Church could truly say for sure that it is either of God or the Devil.

I mean this with utmost respect to the Church and its authority, but if Satan's powers are so great that he can recreate something that can only be good for the purpose of deception, how could one even begin to believe the Church is immune to such deception, other than wishful thinking on the part of those placing their trust in the Church?

Yeah man I hear you what you are saying, which is why included that caveat earlier. I think God can move on good-willed souls despite what is going on. You may very well have had a genuinely good experience.

It's very tricky and that is why there has always been so much stress from spiritual writers on not trusting our emotions.  

Maybe someone can touch on some of the saints writings on discernment.
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#18
(07-20-2017, 04:23 PM)Melkite Wrote: My experience at a healing mass was the most plainly supernatural thing I have ever experience, and in a way that cannot be verbalized, the love, peace and joy I experience was realer than real.  I will not say that the Devil cannot mimic that, but if he can, it is utterly impossible for me to know with any certainty that I am ever experiencing God.  The Church's discernment would be worthless, because if the Devil can come up with such a compelling facsimile, not even the Church could truly say for sure that it is either of God or the Devil.

I mean this with utmost respect to the Church and its authority, but if Satan's powers are so great that he can recreate something that can only be good for the purpose of deception, how could one even begin to believe the Church is immune to such deception, other than wishful thinking on the part of those placing their trust in the Church?

Melkite, thank you for sharing your experiences with us! Accounts like yours make me hesitant to condemn the Charismatic movement, despite all its problematic aspects.

There are usually two criteria for spiritual discernment:

1. The assessment of your confessor or spiritual superior who is supposed to judge your experience according Catholic Doctrine and the current guidelines set by your bishop and the Pope. Note: the living authority of your confessor always(!) trumps your private intellectual judgement about the experience.

2. The experience induces humility. Note: The virtue of humility is often misunderstood. It does not (merely) consist in outward humble behaviour. Many saints describe it like this: "You consider yourself the least and worst of all human beings, worse and more unworthy than the vilest criminal." Unless one feels like this, one must assume that he is still being prideful. An authentic encounter with God humbles you, encounters with fallen spiritual beings make you feel puffed up…"Today I encountered an angel of light, he deemed me worthy of receiving his secret message! Listen to me!"

I will get a lot of backlash for this, but with respect to the first point, many traditional Catholics are in even greater spiritual danger than many Charismatics (adherents of FSPX opposed to communion with the Pope, Sedevacantists). God would not allow that millions of persons fall prey to demonic deception, just because they follow obediently the assessments of their confessors, bishops and Popes (how God judges these authorities for their false assessment is another question). There are five Popes who approved of the Charismatic movement, and Charismatic meetings are not doctrinally(!) unsound, as they have their roots in the Bible and there is no magisterial teaching that condemns them. So, Charismatics are neither in a state of disobedience nor explicit heresy when they engage in their meetings.

The problem is the second point, the lack of humility that usually happens when people think they have a special charism. That's what I meant originally by 'demonic deception'. Even if all healings happened through God, people who are not trained in spiritual discernment could start to think they were the cause of the healing. And even if people experience the Holy Spirit at these meetings, they could come to the conviction that the Holy Spirit can be controlled to induce nice feelings in them. God cannot be controlled. As C.S. Lewis said: Aslan is not a tame Lion :-)

But one has also to be careful not to condemn any kind of "feeling" in the context of spirituality. When spiritual teachers warn about sentimentality and feelings, they are talking to cradle Catholics, monks and nuns, who have been praying various hours per day for their whole life. Once you are at this stage, we must learn to love God for God's sake, not for the nice and peaceful feelings and spiritual consolations he gives us. The way to God is the way of the Cross. Sooner or later, we all must learn this lesson.

However, to be able to choose the cross, we first must learn to love God. And as we are a composite of body and soul, in the initial stages of spiritual life God teaches us to love him by inducing good feelings about him in us.

If God used the "filling with the Holy Spirit" as a way of converting people in the Pagan empire, why shouldn't he use it again in our Neo-Pagan age? What got me thinking about this topic is the following passage from Acts 10, where unbaptized(!) Gentiles came to the faith through the experience of the Holy Spirit:

Quote:"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.Then Peter said,  “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days."


There are tens of millions of converts to the Christian faith through the (Protestant) Charismatic movement, all over the world (especially China and in the Muslim world). On the one hand, this is very preoccupying, because they are learning about the faith through the lens of heresy. On the other hand, would the devil really want tens of millions of atheists and Muslims to be baptized, read the Bible and sing hymns to Jesus?

Just look at the following footage from China. Before these people engaged in these prayer meetings, they were atheist Communists. Is it the work of demons or is it God using imperfect (Protestant) means to effect conversions, because the current Catholic Church refuses to 'proselytize'?

 
"Cor Jesu Rex Et Centrum Omnium Cordium, miserére nobis "

“To pray is to shed blood.” - Silouan the Athonite
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#19
I went to a charismatic Mass once and these two guys prayed over me in tongues. One kept saying 'Allahu Akbar' (Arabic: God is great or God is the greatest) over and over again.

I remember watching a video about Hindu kundalini yoga where people were falling over, kind of like what Benny Hinn does. The video mentioned that some of the people barked like dogs. The fact that charismatic/Pentecostal type worship resembles a pagan religion is disturbing, to say the least.

One of the things that I don't like about the charismatic Catholic movement is that their worship typically involves guitars and drums. I didn't like that style of worship even before I found out about traditional Catholicism.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

St Michael, pray for us.
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#20
(07-21-2017, 03:24 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: There are tens of millions of converts to the Christian faith through the (Protestant) Charismatic movement, all over the world (especially China and in the Muslim world). On the one hand, this is very preoccupying, because they are learning about the faith through the lens of heresy. On the other hand, would the devil really want tens of millions of atheists and Muslims to be baptized, read the Bible and sing hymns to Jesus?

Just look at the following footage from China. Before these people engaged in these prayer meetings, they were atheist Communists. Is it the work of demons or is it God using imperfect (Protestant) means to effect conversions, because the current Catholic Church refuses to 'proselytize'?

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

I would say the Devil doesn't mind people reading the Bible (the truncated, corrupted version ) and singing hymns to Jesus if he has them in heresy, because he gets them anyway.  

God is not the author of such freneticism and I would argue that He is not going to "switch" his Church to Protestantism just because current apostates claiming to be bishops and priests, who may or may not be valid, refuse to proselytize.
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