Catholic Charismatic Renewal - Movement
#21
(07-21-2017, 03:24 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: I will get a lot of backlash for this, but with respect to the first point, many traditional Catholics are in even greater spiritual danger than many Charismatics (adherents of FSPX opposed to communion with the Pope, Sedevacantists). God would not allow that millions of persons fall prey to demonic deception, just because they follow obediently the assessments of their confessors, bishops and Popes (how God judges these authorities for their false assessment is another question). There are five Popes who approved of the Charismatic movement, and Charismatic meetings are not doctrinally(!) unsound, as they have their roots in the Bible and there is no magisterial teaching that condemns them. So, Charismatics are neither in a state of disobedience nor explicit heresy when they engage in their meetings.

I don't know about that.  These confessors, papal claimants and bishops first owe obedience to the Faith, and do not deserve our obedience if they hold it in contempt. Safety in obedience presumes orthodox times and orthodox clergymen.  These conciliar popes pretty much permit anything and everything to tear up the flock.  

Who is to say God would or would not do? I think it is possible He would allow millions of people to fall for deception, as alluded to at Fatima for the punishment of our sins.

"And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity. " (2nd Thessalonians 2: 11)

As Dr. Thomas Droleskey of Christ or Chaos has stated, whether or not one agrees with his conclusions on the state of the Church:

"God permitted one hundred percent of the human race to be deceived in the Garden of Eden.

God permitted all but eight members of the human race to be deceived and deluded prior to the Great Flood.

Almost all of the Chosen People who had been led out of their bondage to the slavery of the Egyptian Pharaoh by Moses built and worshiped a molten calf whilst Moses was receiving the Ten Commandments from God on Mount Sinai.

All but a handful of people stood by Our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as He suffered and died for us on the wood of the Holy Cross on Good Friday.

All but a handful of bishops remained faithful to the Church during the Arian heresy that was fought by Saint Athanasius. Saint Jerome, of those who fought Arianism, wrote "The whole world groaned, and was astonished to find itself Arian."

All but one bishop, Saint John Fisher of Rochester, England, defected from the Faith at the time of the Protestant Revolt in England when King Henry VIII took this thoroughly Catholic country out of the Church.

All but thirty bishops defected from the Faith at the time Queen Elizabeth I took England out of the Church once again in the 1560s following the brief restoration that took place under the reign of her half-sister, Queen Mary, from 1553 to 1558.

The "mainstream" is not be followed. We need apostolic courage in these times of apostasy and betrayal. God's greater honor and glory must be defended against the against of men who have proved themselves to be precursors of the Antichrist.

God does indeed permit massive numbers of people to be deceived. His greater honor and glory are defended in most cases by a relative handful of the most unlikely souls, whom He raises up to confound the mighty and the powerful and the respected.

How do we think that we are going to recognize, no less resist and reject, the Antichrist when he comes when we are so complacent and smug in the face of the groundwork that is being laid by his conciliar minions for his coming? Will the emotionalism of sentimentality and the delusion of positivism not prevail then in the minds and hearts of most men?"
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#22
(07-21-2017, 08:46 AM)BC Wrote: I don't know about that.  Who is to say God would or would not do? I think He will allow millions of people to fall for deception, as alluded to at Fatima for the punishment of our sins.

As Dr. Thomas Droleskey has stated, whether or not one agrees with his conclusions on the state of the Church:

I'll have to repeat my words:

Quote:God would not allow that millions of persons fall prey to demonic deception, just because they follow obediently the assessments of their confessors 

The 30 bishops in England were not obedient toward their superior (the Pope). During confessions, we have to believe that everything the Priest tells us is through the Holy Spirit, or at least that his utterings happen with the approval of God - even if the confessor has evil motives.

There are hundreds of cases in the life of the saints where they followed obediently the orders of their superior and God always rewarded them afterwards, even if the superiors were deceived or evil. For example, St. Teresa's had an ignorant confessor who told her that her experiences came from the devil. Obedient as she was, she surpressed the visions. Afterwards, God showered her with even more consolations, told her that there is nothing which he loves more than obedience and arranged for her to get a new, wiser confessor.

If you are humble and obedient toward authority, God will work things out for you. If you trust in your own intellectual judgement about what is right or wrong and are disobedient toward the Hierarchy, you are on your own (however justified your reason for disobedience might appear).
"Cor Jesu Rex Et Centrum Omnium Cordium, miserére nobis "

“To pray is to shed blood.” - Silouan the Athonite
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#23
(07-21-2017, 09:01 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote:
(07-21-2017, 08:46 AM)BC Wrote: I don't know about that.  Who is to say God would or would not do? I think He will allow millions of people to fall for deception, as alluded to at Fatima for the punishment of our sins.

As Dr. Thomas Droleskey has stated, whether or not one agrees with his conclusions on the state of the Church:

I'll have to repeat my words:

Quote:God would not allow that millions of persons fall prey to demonic deception, just because they follow obediently the assessments of their confessors 

The 30 bishops in England were not obedient toward their superior (the Pope). During confessions, we have to believe that everything the Priest tells us is through the Holy Spirit, or at least that his utterings happen with the approval of God - even if the confessor has evil motives.

There are hundreds of cases in the life of the saints where they followed obediently the orders of their superior and God always rewarded them afterwards, even if the superiors were deceived or evil. For example, St. Teresa's had an ignorant confessor who told her that her experiences came from the devil. Obedient as she was, she surpressed the visions. Afterwards, God showered her with even more consolations, told her that there is nothing which he loves more than obedience and arranged for her to get a new, wiser confessor.

If you are humble and obedient toward authority, God will work things out for you. If you trust in your own intellectual judgement about what is right or wrong and are disobedient toward the Hierarchy, you are on your own (however justified your reason for disobedience might appear).

Yes, and what we have here is not the same situation.  My point was stressing that God does allow all kinds of deception.

"In the Third Secret it is foretold, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Catholic Church will begin at the top." --Cardinal Mario L. Ciappi,

Father Joaquin Alonso, official archivist of Fatima stated that the "crisis in the Faith of the Church and to the negligence of the pastors themselves." (Fr. Joaquin Alonso, La Verdad sobre el Secreto de Fatima.)

At the end of the world and the final apostasy that begins at the "top" of the Church, where the deception is so great even the elect will be deceived, obedience (to superiors), which is a secondary virtue to the service of the Faith, is not going to necessarily cut it.  

That guy above in the video might have been obeying his superior and yet the Devil had him blaspheme God in an unknown language.
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#24
Quote:obedience (to superiors), which is a secondary virtue to the service of the Faith, is not going to necessarily cut it.


This sounds like a quote from Luther.
"Cor Jesu Rex Et Centrum Omnium Cordium, miserére nobis "

“To pray is to shed blood.” - Silouan the Athonite
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#25
(07-21-2017, 10:13 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote:
Quote:obedience (to superiors), which is a secondary virtue to the service of the Faith, is not going to necessarily cut it.


This sounds like a quote from Luther.

Well Francis esteems and agrees with Luther so that should be no problem, right?...

But seriously,

"Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God, therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things. 

- St. Thomas Aquinas,  Summa Theoligica II-IIQ. 104

"..If the faith is endangered a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. Hence Paul, who was Peter's subject, rebuked him in public, on account of the imminent danger of scandal concerning the faith, and, as the gloss of Augustine says on Gal. 2:11: "Peter gave an example to superiors that if at any time they should happen to stray from the straight path, they should not disdain to be reproved by their subjects". ( Summa Theologica, Q.33 Art 4, St. Thomas Aquinas)

"All disciplinary authority, all obedience to a bishop presupposes the pure teaching of the Holy Church. Obedience to the bishop is grounded in complete faith in the teaching of the Holy Church. As soon as the ecclesiastical authority yields to pluralism in questions of faith, it has lost the right to claim obedience to its disciplinary ordinances. " - Professor Dietrich von Hildebrand, The Devasted Vineyard (chicago 1973), pp 3-5

Pope Benedict XIV: “A superior is not to be obeyed when he commands anything contrary to the divine law, as we read in Gratian…. Neither is a monk to obey his abbot when he commands anything contrary to the rule, according to the well-known letter of St. Bernard to the monk Adam. A blind obedience excludes the prudence of the flesh, not the prudence of the spirit, as shown at length by Suarez.” -Treatise of Benedict XIV, Vol III (London: Thomas Richardson and Son, 1882) pg 59-60

“When the shepherd becomes a wolf, the first duty of the flock is to defend itself. (…) The true children of Holy Church, at such times, are those who walk by the light of their Baptism, not the cowardly souls who, under the specious pretext of submission to the powers that be, delay their opposition to the enemy in the hope of receiving instructions [to do so] which are neither necessary nor desirable."- The Liturgical Year, Dom Prosper Guéranger 

“In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind is so grave and so dangerous [to the Faith] that the Roman Pontiff, who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith.”- Papal Bull of Paul IV, Cum ex Apostolatus Officio

“Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to 
undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations," Bishop Melchior Cano O.P., a theologian of the Council of Trent.

"Satan's masterstroke is to have succeeded in sowing disobedience to all Tradition through obedience (ie. false obedience)." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre

“In a hundred years time . . . bishops and priests will think they are marching behind the banner of the keys of Peter when in fact they will be following our flag . . . The reforms will have to be brought about in the name of obedience.” [The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita/A Masonic Blueprint for the Subversion of the Catholic Church].
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#26
The problem is the assumption that because the Charismatic Movement can find roots in the Bible, that they are not doctrinally unsound. Protestants claim to find a lot of things in the Bible that are supposed to back up their beliefs, but they are dead wrong. As I quoted St. Augustine and St. Thomas earlier, speaking in tongues was for a time only.  Anyone trying to recreate Pentecost is playing with fire, especially since this phenomenon originated in modern times outside the Catholic Church.  The "Charismatic Catholics" are just mimicking the Pentecostal prots.
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#27
I was once invited by a friend of mine to what he presented to me as a "prayer group" from his parish. In actuality it was a Catholic charismatic group, so I just kinda stood in the back and didn't partake in it. One person was "speaking in tongues" and a they were doing the whole "slain in the Spirit" thing. They asked me if I wanted to do it but I just said no thanks as a former Pentecostal.
Corpus Christi, salva me.

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#28
Whilst it has been touched upon, I think it needs emphasising that both the 'Pentecostal Movement' amongst the heretics and the 'Charismatic Renewal' amongst Catholics strongly imply, even if neither explicitly states, that the Third Person of the Holy Trinity deserted the Church for almost two millennia. I am reminded of an Orthodox Hieromonk of my acquaintance, who when asked why there was no comparable movement in Orthodoxy, replied, 'Because we never lost the Holy Ghost'.

And something that I haven't seen mentioned is equally important, and that is that the 'speaking in tongues' of the modern movements is qualitatively different than the Gift of Tongues related in Holy Scripture. It is recorded in the Second Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles that,

[/url]
Quote:[url=http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=2&l=1-#x][1] And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak. [5] Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[6] And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. [7] And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? [8] And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? [9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, [10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,
[11] Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. [12] And they were all astonished, and wondered, saying one to another: What meaneth this?


Note, that the Apostles were not 'speaking in tongues' in the modern sense. They were speaking natural languages understood by their hearers. Thus was the confusion of Babel reversed by the Grace of God.
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#29
(07-21-2017, 11:18 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Whilst it has been touched upon, I think it needs emphasising that both the 'Pentecostal Movement' amongst the heretics and the 'Charismatic Renewal' amongst Catholics strongly imply, even if neither explicitly states, that the Third Person of the Holy Trinity deserted the Church for almost two millennia. I am reminded of an Orthodox Hieromonk of my acquaintance, who when asked why there was no comparable movement in Orthodoxy, replied, 'Because we never lost the Holy Ghost'.

And something that I haven't seen mentioned is equally important, and that is that the 'speaking in tongues' of the modern movements is qualitatively different than the Gift of Tongues related in Holy Scripture. It is recorded in the Second Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles that,

(...)

Note, that the Apostles were not 'speaking in tongues' in the modern sense. They were speaking natural languages understood by their hearers. Thus was the confusion of Babel reversed by the Grace of God.

It is true that the event of Pentecost as described in the Acts 2 differs from the gift of tongues practiced by the Charismatics. However, if you read the first letter to the Corinthians, it becomes pretty clear that (during ordinary prayer meetings) people spoke in "unkown" tongues which had to be "intepreted" to be understood:

Quote:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (1 Cor, 12)

Quote:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. (1 Cor, 13)


I would also (partly) disagree with the comments of St. Augustine and St. Thomas about the subject (quoted by BC earlier in this thread). They had to explain why this phenomenon seemed to have ceased at their times and their explanation is reasonable. But their argument only explained why the phenomenon had stopped at a large scale. There are many cases of saints who spoke in foreign or unknown languages after the apostolic age. For example, there is the case of Therese Neumann who spoke in Aramaeic when experiencing her Stigmata.

But the fact that this phenomenon still exists does not mean that one should try to induce them artificially.
"Cor Jesu Rex Et Centrum Omnium Cordium, miserére nobis "

“To pray is to shed blood.” - Silouan the Athonite
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#30
Good day! I have to say I have mixed feeling about the Charismatic Renewal. I actually go it! and I am a trad too!

I say there is a time and place for everything! we have our meeting on Thursday nights but the formation classes, classes about the faith and bible are Mondays of course everything is voluntary. I have to say to some point I think everyone should have the experience the mayority of the trads are to cold, serious and even rude! one must be happy in the Lord and transmit that happiness to others, make people say "I want what that person has" these people contrary to the many cafeteria catholics know who the receive in the Eucharist. Now I do see the danger of some not all wanting to be charismatic at mass but not , all many know time to praise and worship in a charismatic way is separate from mass, mass must be respectful and reverent , so here are my thoughts as a charismatic and a Traditional Latin Mass lover! -pax


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