Was it judgmental to say that?
#1
I was doing a online debate on hell, and this unfathful catholic came up and, in arguing against hell, compared God to an abusive babysitter if He created hell. I responded to her arguments and pointed out just merciful God has been to us already, and then concluded with this:

"[are you] really going to, after considering all that God has done for you, continue to accuse Him being merciless and cruel? Will you say that to His Beautiful Face (albeit shrouded in glory) when your time comes? You already do it, at the very least, every Sunday when you receive His Precious Body and Blood."

At first, I thought this was just, and was actually hoping and praying that this might plant seeds of conversion in her. However, part of me is starting to wonder if this might have been judging her soul, was it? Did I judge her soul when I said that, or was this a just and theo-centric rebuke?
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Glory to God
and
Hail Mary!
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#2
How did that person respond?
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#3
You basically accused this girl of having comitted a mortal sin (sacrilegous reception of communion) without having any real basis for it. She did not say that God is mercyless and cruel, she only said that the doctrine you presented to her would imply that God was mercyless, which she doesn't believe. Even if he was wrong in her views about Catholic doctrine, this is not enough to claim that she was disrespectful when receiving the Host - which is a very grave charge. But it is a good sign that you recognized that you went too far. God appreciates repentance more than righteousness ;-)

Btw., it is legitimate to doubt that God created hell...many Fathers doubted that. I heard the same statement by contemporaneous traditionalists like Fr. Rippberger and Fr. Amorth. According to them, the devil and his demons created hell.

Personal accusations usually never lead to conversions, neither of heart nor of mind. The best way to convince people is to confront them with facts or ask them Socratic questions which make them doubt their false presuppositions.
"Cor Jesu Rex Et Centrum Omnium Cordium, miserére nobis "

“To pray is to shed blood.” - Silouan the Athonite
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#4
(07-27-2017, 05:59 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: You basically accused this girl of having comitted a mortal sin (sacrilegous reception of communion) without having any real basis for it. She did not say that God is mercyless and cruel, she only said that the doctrine you presented to her would imply that God was mercyless, which she doesn't believe. Even if he was wrong in her views about Catholic doctrine, this is not enough to claim that she was disrespectful when receiving the Host - which is a very grave charge. But it is a good sign that you recognized that you went too far. God appreciates repentance more than righteousness ;-)

Btw., it is legitimate to doubt that God created hell...many Fathers doubted that. I heard the same statement by contemporaneous traditionalists like Fr. Rippberger and Fr. Amorth. According to them, the devil and his demons created hell.

Personal accusations usually never lead to conversions, neither of heart nor of mind. The best way to convince people is to confront them with facts or ask them Socratic questions which make them doubt their false presuppositions.

In your opinion was Saint Paul "judgemental when he declared:
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9–10).

Indeed, "who was he to judge?" the Pope would say...
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#5
(07-27-2017, 08:41 AM)maso Wrote:
(07-27-2017, 05:59 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: You basically accused this girl of having comitted a mortal sin (sacrilegous reception of communion) without having any real basis for it. She did not say that God is mercyless and cruel, she only said that the doctrine you presented to her would imply that God was mercyless, which she doesn't believe. Even if he was wrong in her views about Catholic doctrine, this is not enough to claim that she was disrespectful when receiving the Host - which is a very grave charge. But it is a good sign that you recognized that you went too far. God appreciates repentance more than righteousness ;-)

Btw., it is legitimate to doubt that God created hell...many Fathers doubted that. I heard the same statement by contemporaneous traditionalists like Fr. Rippberger and Fr. Amorth. According to them, the devil and his demons created hell.

Personal accusations usually never lead to conversions, neither of heart nor of mind. The best way to convince people is to confront them with facts or ask them Socratic questions which make them doubt their false presuppositions.

In your opinion was Saint Paul "judgemental when he declared:
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9–10).

Indeed, "who was he to judge?" the Pope would say...
How do you know that the girl belongs to any of those categories mentioned by Paul? Everything we know about her is that she doesn't like the idea of God having created hell (which is not a dogma).
"Cor Jesu Rex Et Centrum Omnium Cordium, miserére nobis "

“To pray is to shed blood.” - Silouan the Athonite
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#6
(07-27-2017, 09:06 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote:
(07-27-2017, 08:41 AM)maso Wrote:
(07-27-2017, 05:59 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: You basically accused this girl of having comitted a mortal sin (sacrilegous reception of communion) without having any real basis for it. She did not say that God is mercyless and cruel, she only said that the doctrine you presented to her would imply that God was mercyless, which she doesn't believe. Even if he was wrong in her views about Catholic doctrine, this is not enough to claim that she was disrespectful when receiving the Host - which is a very grave charge. But it is a good sign that you recognized that you went too far. God appreciates repentance more than righteousness ;-)

Btw., it is legitimate to doubt that God created hell...many Fathers doubted that. I heard the same statement by contemporaneous traditionalists like Fr. Rippberger and Fr. Amorth. According to them, the devil and his demons created hell.

Personal accusations usually never lead to conversions, neither of heart nor of mind. The best way to convince people is to confront them with facts or ask them Socratic questions which make them doubt their false presuppositions.

In your opinion was Saint Paul "judgemental when he declared:
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9–10).

Indeed, "who was he to judge?" the Pope would say...
How do you know that the girl belongs to any of those categories mentioned by Paul? Everything we know about her is that she doesn't like the idea of God having created hell (which is not a dogma).

Sorry, the existence of Hell is a dogma. Read the RCC's catechism.
Jésus spoke many times about the "Gehenna", the fire that never extinguishes.
And what about the vision of Hell that our Lady showed the 3 Fatima's kids. Did she scare them uselessly ?
Padre Pio: "You don't believe in Hell ? Trust me, you will believe the day you will end there..."
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#7
(07-27-2017, 11:47 AM)maso Wrote: Sorry, the existence of Hell is a dogma. Read the RCC's catechism.
Jésus spoke many times about the "Gehenna", the fire that never extinguishes.
And what about the vision of Hell that our Lady showed the 3 Fatima's kids. Did she scare them uselessly ?
Padre Pio: "You don't believe in Hell ? Trust me, you will believe the day you will end there..."

The existence of hell is a dogma, but not that God created it. Have you actually read the previous posts?
"Cor Jesu Rex Et Centrum Omnium Cordium, miserére nobis "

“To pray is to shed blood.” - Silouan the Athonite
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#8
(07-27-2017, 12:37 PM)JosefSilouan Wrote:
(07-27-2017, 11:47 AM)maso Wrote: Sorry, the existence of Hell is a dogma. Read the RCC's catechism.
Jésus spoke many times about the "Gehenna", the fire that never extinguishes.
And what about the vision of Hell that our Lady showed the 3 Fatima's kids. Did she scare them uselessly ?
Padre Pio: "You don't believe in Hell ? Trust me, you will believe the day you will end there..."

The existence of hell is a dogma, but not that God created it. Have you actually read the previous posts?
Nothing is created without God's permission.
Therefore God created Hell.
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#9
"Nothing is created without God's permission.

Therefore God created Hell. "

I think this is oversimplifying. God has an active and a permissive will. You wouldn't say that God created porn shops or brothels just because He, for a time, permits their existence.

That said, I don't have a clear-cut position on who created Hell, just that it exists. But I think your reasoning could be misapplied.
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#10
(07-27-2017, 02:53 PM)In His Love Wrote: "Nothing is created without God's permission.

Therefore God created Hell. "

I think this is oversimplifying. God has an active and a permissive will. You wouldn't say that God created porn shops or brothels just because He, for a time, permits their existence.

That said, I don't have a clear-cut position on who created Hell, just that it exists. But I think your reasoning could be misapplied.

I think that if God didn't create Hell, he authorized Satan to build it with the aim to hold captive souls inside forever. Only a few souls agree to go there freely. But God intends to send there even unwilling souls who didn't repent of their sins before their death.
Therefore He allowed Satan to build Hell purposely.
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