Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to declare liturgy changes ‘irreversible’
#11
How can I think in a GOD that gives 10 thou shalt not's that don't include: don't trash eden
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#12
(08-24-2017, 07:20 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(08-24-2017, 05:01 PM)Paul Wrote:
(08-24-2017, 04:46 PM)J Michael Wrote: :scratchinghead: Pardon my ignorance, but is this an ex-cathedra declaration thus making it infallible and hence, truly irreversible?

It's as infallible as Quo primum.

:s :s   So....that doesn't really answer my question.  I've never heard of Quo primum and have no knowledge of it.  So...I'll ask again, in my ever increasing ignorance....is this an ex-cathedra declaration making it an infallible papal utterance?

Here you go:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius05/p5quopri.htm

Pretty much establishes TLM as THE Mass, to be unaltered in perpetuity. In essence, if Quo Primum could just be discarded by 20th century popes, then any papal decree regarding the liturgy is the same. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the pope couldn't suppress TLM during his pontificate, but it doesn't mean that it would necessarily be true afterwards if another pope undoes that suppression.
Quote:Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world

..

All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure.

...

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemorial prescription – except, however, if more than two hundred years’ standing.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

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#13
J Michael's question has me puzzled. The answers have me more puzzled.

Was Quo Primum an ex-cathedra declaration and therefore infallible?

Some say popes declarations are not binding on future popes.

But doesn't this mean that all ex-cathedra declarations can be overturned by future popes?

Or was Quo Primum not ex-cathedra, and if not, why not, as it seems very strongly worded. I would find it hard to find a papal declaration as strongly worded as what we see in Quo Primum.

I would appreciate some insight.
"The days have gone down in the West, behind the hills, into shadow." - Theoden, King.
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#14
As an aside, what Pope Francis said is also absolutely laughable in a sense: I dare him to make Sacrosanctum Concilium binding on all priests, eliminating everything else. So . . . all masses would be ad orientem, Gregorian chant in all masses, Latin taught in all parishes, communion on the tongue . . . . So yes, let's see him implement SC and eliminate whatever is not in it.
"The days have gone down in the West, behind the hills, into shadow." - Theoden, King.
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#15
(08-24-2017, 10:19 PM)maldon Wrote: J Michael's question has me puzzled. The answers have me more puzzled.

Was Quo Primum an ex-cathedra declaration and therefore infallible?

Some say popes declarations are not binding on future popes.

But doesn't this mean that all ex-cathedra declarations can be overturned by future popes?

Or was Quo Primum not ex-cathedra, and if not, why not, as it seems very strongly worded. I would find it hard to find a papal declaration as strongly worded as what we see in Quo Primum.

I would appreciate some insight.

Quo primum was disciplinary, not doctrinal, and every Pope has the same authority as any other in binding and loosing in such matters. Infallibility is meant to preserve the truth of what God's revealed to us, and you can't have one Pope saying Mary was immaculately conceived and another Pope saying she wasn't. Or one Pope saying women can't be ordained because the Sacrament of Holy Orders doesn't work that way. If a later Pope says otherwise, then the previous Pope taught something wrong. But that doesn't apply to discipline, which the Popes can adjust based on the requirements of their times.

The strongest proof, though, that Quo primum doesn't bind future popes is that it was disregarded less than 50 years later by Clement VIII and Urban VIII, who made changes to the Missal - and even more so to the Breviary, which has a similar bull, Quod a nobis, with the same sort of strong wording. And that doesn't even get to Pius X, who completely changed the Psalter, the heart of the Breviary - one could compare it to adding new Eucharistic Prayers instead of the Canon. And he's not only a saint, but the patron saint of the group that started the whole traditional thing.

Popes can and have changed the liturgy, and regardless of what Pope Francis says, the next Pope could completely abolish every bit of the new liturgy. Not that I think that'll happen anytime soon.
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#16
Ugh, I hope this is fake news...if not I'm going to be sick to my stomach.
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#17
I think still no one answered JM's question:

Was Francis' declaration "ex cathedra" in form and content? Was he invoking infallibility?

If the answer is yes, and he is contradicting another infallible declaration, we have an even bigger problem than merely the liturgy. And if he is not contradicting another infallible declaration, his statement would be binding for all Catholics.
"Cor Jesu Rex Et Centrum Omnium Cordium, miserére nobis "

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#18
How sad when the titular Vicar of Christ is so ignorant of basic sacramental theology.

Quote: Liturgy is also alive .....because “it’s an action for the people, but also by the people.”

Wrong, Your Holiness.  It is Jesus Christ, King of Kings, who acts on the altar.  The level of participation expected of everyone but the celebrant and his assistants is interior assent to the Holy, Unbloody Sacrifice re-presented by the Second Person of the Trinity, not "by" the people.  Even Sacrosanctum Concilium acknowledges this, not to mention subsequent documents, such as those of BXVI.
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#19
WAsn't liturgical reform started by Pope St. Pius X?
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#20
(08-25-2017, 02:40 AM)Miriam_M Wrote: How sad when the titular Vicar of Christ is so ignorant of basic sacramental theology.

Quote: Liturgy is also alive .....because “it’s an action for the people, but also by the people.”

Wrong, Your Holiness.  It is Jesus Christ, King of Kings, who acts on the altar.  The level of participation expected of everyone but the celebrant and his assistants is interior assent to the Holy, Unbloody Sacrifice re-presented by the Second Person of the Trinity, not "by" the people.  Even Sacrosanctum Concilium acknowledges this, not to mention subsequent documents, such as those of BXVI.

This is an example of 'the pope's' history of Jesuit Liberation Theology sticking its rotten little head out. Liberation Theology's basis is that power comes from the people, not from God; a blatantly Marxist ideology at its core. This apostate 'pope' is starting to show, more and more, his true colors. I guess the wolf can't keep the sheepskin over himself all the time.
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