Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to declare liturgy changes ‘irreversible’
#31
The Pope aslo said;
"The liturgy is life for the entire people of the Church.[13]By its nature the liturgy is in fact “popular” and not clerical, being –"

https://zenit.org/articles/vatican-iis-l...anslation/

There would be no Latin Mass if this wer not the case. 
Reply
#32
People can argue till they are blue in the face about infallibility or not but the reality on the ground is that popes have said stuff like this before (like what Paul has shown above) and their reforms have stuck, sometimes for centuries.  

I actually cringe when I read those from Pius V and Pius X, especially Pius X arrogantly overturning the ancient Roman Psalter schema and expressly forbidding anyone to ever use it again!


It's the same with the Gregorian calendar reform, when the pope simply says from now on the calendar jumps ahead a week or two and anyone who wants to continue to worship in the old calendar are flouting his authority and worthy if condemnation and punishment. 


Francis is just trying to create stability in the church, and stability can never come as long as there are basically two "forms" of the Roman liturgy and a totally different calendar, and worldview associated with each.   Like with previous popes before him he wants obedience to his whims, and claims infallible apostolic authority to get it.  Also, like other reforms usually the popes get their way and there is, to my knowledge, never any rolling back tyke clock. 


The chances of some future pope rolling back the clock is pretty much a pipe dream.  What you might see is an increasingly aggressive drive to delegitimitize any displays of preconciliar Catholicism, thereby further alienating trad types from an organization that has clearly no interest whatsoever in its own patrimony or the theology, piety and worldview that are deeply entwined with the old ways. 

Lex Orandi  Lex Credendi really mean something.  All reformers know this intuitively even if they can't articulate it.  The Catholic Church in its leadership did an about face in mid 20th century and this pope wants to continue the new trajectory while further alienating and denouncing those that still believe in the ancient ways. 

The problem with Romes way of doing things started centuries ago.  When you allow one man the power to tinker endlessly with the liturgy in the name of ANY authority you destroy Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi and make everything dependent on the whims of a man.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
Reply
#33
The Novus Ordo is failing and TLM is rising. Within 20 years I see the pews being empty at NO churches and full at TLM churches. Things will sort themselves out. Trads have bigger families and children who tend to remain in the Faith into their adult years. That's why I believe that we'll see the return of TLM as the main form of the Mass, maybe even within our lifetimes.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
[-] The following 2 users Like GangGreen's post:
  • GRA, Miriam_M
Reply
#34
(08-26-2017, 09:48 AM)GangGreen Wrote: The Novus Ordo is failing and TLM is rising. Within 20 years I see the pews being empty at NO churches and full at TLM churches. Things will sort themselves out. Trads have bigger families and children who tend to remain in the Faith into their adult years. That's why I believe that we'll see the return of TLM as the main form of the Mass, maybe even within our lifetimes.

I wonder if the future Catholic crisis will be one of Sola Doctrinam, meaning that as people grow more and more weary of worldly bishops and popes. The new crisis will be one in which that it's not that the Pope is saying blasphemous things and many people accept as gospel, as it currently is with this Papalism error ---the idea that everything the Pope says and does is doctrinal and guided by the Holy Paraclete--- but, it will be were too many Catholics interpret the Faith for themselves and no one listens or follows the popes or bishops, even if they are saintly.


Interesting to think about.
Reply
#35
(08-26-2017, 10:09 AM)austenbosten Wrote:
(08-26-2017, 09:48 AM)GangGreen Wrote: The Novus Ordo is failing and TLM is rising. Within 20 years I see the pews being empty at NO churches and full at TLM churches. Things will sort themselves out. Trads have bigger families and children who tend to remain in the Faith into their adult years. That's why I believe that we'll see the return of TLM as the main form of the Mass, maybe even within our lifetimes.

I wonder if the future Catholic crisis will be one of Sola Doctrinam, meaning that as people grow more and more weary of worldly bishops and popes.  The new crisis will be one in which that it's not that the Pope is saying blasphemous things and many people accept as gospel, as it currently is with this Papalism error ---the idea that everything the Pope says and does is doctrinal and guided by the Holy Paraclete--- but, it will be were too many Catholics interpret the Faith for themselves and no one listens or follows the popes or bishops, even if they are saintly.


Interesting to think about.

A sort of Protestantism in a sense. Although interesting since you'd have at least the traditionalist group who follows the Faith as it was handed down through the centuries rather than making stuff up as they go. 

I do wonder how things will work out once the VII generation dies out. Pope Francis was ordained in 1969 when the NO was promulgated. You figure priests who were ordained in that era were steeped in post-VII spirit nonsense. If you put JPII's pontificate as the start of an at least partial return to a more orthodox type of Catholicism, the priests ordained in that time period are no older than mid-60s. Meaning all pre-VII through Paul VI are at least late 60s and older. So certainly you'd expect that crowd to start thinning out within the next 20 years.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
Reply
#36
In a certain way sola doctrina is what many sedevacantists and " recognize and resist" type trads already follow, since they check everything new against the old, and since neither is in any kind of real communion with the current hierarchy including the Pope.

I suppose this is almost inevitable based on how deep the crisis goes. After the severe damage done to the Latin Rite Patrimony at the hands of the popes and the bishops, is it ever possible to simply trust them and be obedient ever again? I would say I cannot but answer a resounding "no". The illusion that the the RCC speaks the truth through the Pope and the hierarchy is, at least for me, shattered.

At least for me there's a feeling of safety within a Sola Traditio way of seeing the truths of sacramental Christianity.  The bishops exist for the most part to pass on apostolic succession and to ( at their best) be a Christlike example of a Christian and to also hand on the Tradition whole and entire. 

In the absence of clear leaders or even clear teachings we must fall back on the documents of the Ecumenical Councils ( especially the first 7) the Fathers and the content of the ancient pre 20th century  service books ( Breviaries, Missals etc.

Even though I am more radical in my views than some in trad circles since I reject as untraditional most of the 20th century reforms I still think some trads see things in a similar wany in that's in the absence of clear leadership they fall back on the Tradition. It's only a matter of degree what we are willing to consider traditional or not. 

I tend to think that what will happen is not a return to the Latin Mass but a stubborn clinging to the Pauline Liturgy and Vatican II that will just continue the decline. Traditional Catholicism will ultimately morph into something of a hybrid with the new and probably look something like an EWTN Mass but in the vernacular.

The New could be abolished, but there's just no evidence that Rome has ever backslidden on stuff like this before, so no real reason to believe this time it'll be different. 


Ultimately "Sola Doctrina " or "Sola Traditio " are going to have to be faced. Heck, for some of us it already is our reality, as it seems completely pointless to pretend we are in communion with men who do not preach, teach or even apparently share the same faith.

Ultimately I think the question of the papacy itself is at stake within Traditionalism in the future. What I mean is that a lot of trads are going to wake up and wonder if maybe ultramontanism writ larger than life is not THE cause of the crisis in the RCC above all else. They'll have to face whether or not the sort of papal maximalism many seem to pine for is in keeping with the schizophrenic way they seem to reject the modern popes and their teachings. This question of the papacy in all this is one I've certainly wrestled with and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
[-] The following 2 users Like formerbuddhist's post:
  • J Michael, Zedta
Reply
#37
(08-26-2017, 09:48 AM)GangGreen Wrote: The Novus Ordo is failing and TLM is rising. Within 20 years I see the pews being empty at NO churches and full at TLM churches. Things will sort themselves out. Trads have bigger families and children who tend to remain in the Faith into their adult years. That's why I believe that we'll see the return of TLM as the main form of the Mass, maybe even within our lifetimes.
Completely agree with this.  There is no passion in the N.O.  It is modernism which is stagnant and uninspiring, not Tradition, which is experiencing a Renaissance in the Church in a deeper way than pre-v2, because convicted laity are more universally eager to understand that Tradition, as well as to follow it.  I'm talking about not the Internet, not theory, not talks, but on the ground, in the parishes.  And what's wonderful is that community is part of that passion and conviction. Truly interested & desirous trads are reaching out to each other for counsel, guidance, resources, mutual prayer in a consistent, steady way.  They are becoming simultaneously committed to Tradition and to each other.
Reply
#38
(08-25-2017, 03:18 PM)Zedta Wrote:
(08-25-2017, 12:30 PM)BC Wrote:
(08-24-2017, 02:30 PM)Zedta Wrote: Quoting Pope Paul VI, the Argentine pontiff added that this process is still ongoing in part because reforming the liturgical books is not enough to “renew the mentality.”


If only the mentality can be fully "renewed" (when there are only a few people left in the pews) then, then will we finally have the fulfillment of Vatican II..

Destruction is Renewal

Was is Peace

Diversity is Strength

I like your post, but where is it that the quote came from? I don't recall posting that. :huh:

Oh, I found it, it's in the article that I posted, not actually a quote of anything I wrote.

Sorry, that was a little confusing.
Reply
#39
(08-28-2017, 05:15 AM)Miriam_M Wrote:
(08-26-2017, 09:48 AM)GangGreen Wrote: The Novus Ordo is failing and TLM is rising. Within 20 years I see the pews being empty at NO churches and full at TLM churches. Things will sort themselves out. Trads have bigger families and children who tend to remain in the Faith into their adult years. That's why I believe that we'll see the return of TLM as the main form of the Mass, maybe even within our lifetimes.
Completely agree with this.  There is no passion in the N.O.  It is modernism which is stagnant and uninspiring, not Tradition, which is experiencing a Renaissance in the Church in a deeper way than pre-v2, because convicted laity are more universally eager to understand that Tradition, as well as to follow it.  I'm talking about not the Internet, not theory, not talks, but on the ground, in the parishes.  And what's wonderful is that community is part of that passion and conviction. Truly interested & desirous trads are reaching out to each other for counsel, guidance, resources, mutual prayer in a consistent, steady way.  They are becoming simultaneously committed to Tradition and to each other.

See, I always hear this, but it is not at ALL what I see in my neck of the woods. The NO Masses are packed to the rafters in parish after parish, and the one TLM in the diocese (FSSP parish), while well-attended, is just one parish. There's an SSPX church, too, that is well-attended, but again, one church. Maybe the TLM is growing at the expense of the NO elsewhere, but I just don't see it here. I personally think belief this is happening is a combination of wishful thinking and surrounding oneself primarily with trads. If you only attend trad chapels or parishes, then the Catholics you encounter are obviously Tradition-inclined. But that ignores the hundreds of Catholics at the NO parish down the street.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
Reply
#40
I've been around quite a bit and yes, I do agree that trads are a small part of things. Trad churches tend to look full or somewhat full because people travel from all around to get to a TLM (although let's be honest, the average person under the age of 50 has probably never seen or heard of the old Mass. For all they know VII made the Mass go from Latin to Vernacular and that's it). That said, I do go to NOs occasionally. Most of them have good attendance, certainly not overflowing with people (except at holidays), but at a glance they look full enough. However, there is also a difference between the demographics in terms of age. You tend to see a lot more 20, 30, and 40 somethings at TLM Masses and that's a huge deal. I obviously can't speak to how fervent a person's faith is who attends NO vs. TLM, but I would wager that the average TLM goer is more educated in Catholicism vs. your average NO goer. People who attend TLM also on average have larger families.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)