Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to declare liturgy changes ‘irreversible’
#51
(08-29-2017, 10:31 PM)aquinas138 Wrote: True. But we're kind of at the point after decades of postconciliar nonsense and the Vatican II disturbance (hopefully!) reaching its apotheosis in Francis that I'm not sure how much protection papal infallibility is providing when the popes studiously AVOID definitively defining anything so that they can spew error or, charitably, ambiguity.

Enough so that Catholics who actually know the faith can resist this sort of thing.

You really think Pope Francis wouldn't define all this if he could? Given the hierarchy we've had since (and before) the Council - Pius X wouldn't have instituted the Oath against Modernism if there weren't modernists - it's surprising that the Church hasn't changed doctrine.
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#52
(08-30-2017, 10:04 AM)Paul Wrote:
(08-29-2017, 10:31 PM)aquinas138 Wrote: True. But we're kind of at the point after decades of postconciliar nonsense and the Vatican II disturbance (hopefully!) reaching its apotheosis in Francis that I'm not sure how much protection papal infallibility is providing when the popes studiously AVOID definitively defining anything so that they can spew error or, charitably, ambiguity.

Enough so that Catholics who actually know the faith can resist this sort of thing.

You really think Pope Francis wouldn't define all this if he could? Given the hierarchy we've had since (and before) the Council - Pius X wouldn't have instituted the Oath against Modernism if there weren't modernists - it's surprising that the Church hasn't changed doctrine.

I don't think so because I don't think he really believes in dogma as a concept or meaningful category. He prefers a fluid doctrine, and definitions might get in the way of being able to change things again in the future.

The doctrine of papal infallibility is in a way not even relevant here, as that simply assures the faithful that the solemn teaching of the popes is trustworthy. Whether he's being divinely prevented from solemnizing error or simply doesn't do so as a tactic, his lower-grade teaching is doing enough damage as it is!

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#53
Quote:I don't think so because I don't think he really believes in dogma as a concept or meaningful category. He prefers a fluid doctrine, and definitions might get in the way of being able to change things again in the future.
I agree, Aquinas, The Trotskyite Communists call it 'permanent revolution' which is a pretty accurate term for what we've seen in the Church these last 50 years. Never say it's over. Even the article points out that in his statement he referred to the liturgical reform as 'ongoing'. Until the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, returns to sanity, the process will always be 'ongoing'!
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#54
Well, it would seem that the 'pope' has continued his assault on the Mass and has taken it to the heights of turning over the duties of Liturgy to Bishop Conferences and even went so far as to seal this disgusting move by making it Cannon Law.

Here's the article from the NY Times and as one may suppose, the 'Catholic' Viewpoints are from the most liberal of sources:



Quote:Pope Francis Shifts Power From Rome With ‘Hugely Important’ Liturgical Reform
By JASON HOROWITZSEPT. 9, 2017
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Pope Francis arriving to lead a Mass in Colombia on Saturday. Credit Stefano Rellandini/Reuters
VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis, who has used his absolute authority in the Vatican to decentralize power from Rome, made a widespread change Saturday to the ways, and words, in which Roman Catholics worship by amending Vatican law to give national bishop conferences greater authority in translating liturgical language.
“It’s hugely important,” said Rita Ferrone, a specialist in Catholic liturgy who writes for Commonweal, a liberal Catholic magazine. She said that by loosening Rome’s grip on the language of prayers, Francis had restored the intention of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and erased some of the rollbacks of his predecessor, Benedict XVI. “It was especially astute that he put it into canon law because it makes it official.”
Francis has not been shy in efforts to reform the church and has tread on some of its most delicate subjects, from challenging the Roman bureaucracy that runs the church to emphasizing acceptance of gays and the divorced.
On Saturday he stepped squarely onto the battlefield of the so-called Liturgy Wars, which, especially in the English-speaking church, have divided liberals and conservatives for decades.
With “Magnum Principium,” a papal Motu Proprio — or a document issued under the pope’s own legal authority – Francis altered a key 2001 instruction by Pope John Paul II that empowered Vatican officials in Rome to ensure local translations adhered to the standard Latin.
 
Catholic progressives have advocated a greater use of contemporary idioms consistent with the Second Vatican Council reforms of the 1960s and many bristled under what they considered a heavy and out-of-touch hand from Rome.
Conservative opponents favored the Latin Mass, or at least more faithful translations to it in the local language, and they wanted the church hierarchy in Rome to ensure global universality and unity by making all of those translations uniform.
By amending the Code of Canon Law, Francis appears to have sided with the liberals in the debate and shifted the ownership of translations to the local bishops.
The amendment is a significant development in a liturgical schism that has split Catholics across the world and was evident at the highest echelons of the church.
In 2007, Benedict himself issued a Motu Proprio increasing access to the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass, a move seen as a microcosm of the church’s shift toward traditionalism during his papacy.
In changing the law, which will go into effect on Oct. 1, the pope recalled that the Vatican Council entrusted bishops with the “weighty task of introducing the vernacular language into the liturgy.” He added that “in order that the renewal of the whole liturgical life might continue, it seemed opportune that some principles handed on since the time of the council should be more clearly reaffirmed and put into practice.”
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He also acknowledged the bitter feelings that the fights over liturgical language have produced, writing, “It is no surprise that difficulties have arisen” between local churches and the Vatican. He then called for “reciprocal trust” between the local churches and the Vatican department with liturgical oversight, known as the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.
But Vatican observers say trust is in short supply between the pope and the cardinal he selected in 2014 to run the department, Robert Sarah.
A hero to Vatican conservatives — and for many, a desired candidate in the next conclave to choose a new pope — Cardinal Sarah has been undermined by partisans of Francis who have worked on a committee to loosen the Guinean cardinal’s cherished Latin literalism.
In 2016, Cardinal Sarah called for priests to celebrate Mass ad orientem, or with their backs to the congregation. Francis promptly issued an unusual public rebuke. And in April of this year, Cardinal Sarah sent a letter honoring Benedict’s support of the Latin Mass, asserting that “modern liturgy” had caused devastation and schism. Benedict wrote that “the liturgy is in good hands,” in an afterward to a book the cardinal wrote this year.
But the liturgy seems to have been in the hands of Francis all along.
Saturday’s Vatican announcement was made as the pope visited Medellin, Colombia, the site of a landmark 1968 meeting that emphasized local Latin American influence in church decision-making. It also came just weeks after the pope — not one to invoke his magisterial authority — did just that when he announced that the liturgical reform of the Second Vatican Council was “irreversible.”
Progressive interpretations of those reforms in the 1960s provoked a backlash, and a “reform of the reform” movement, which ultimately had advocates at the top of the church during the reigns of John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.
In 2001, the Vatican issued the Liturgiam Authenticam, or Authentic Liturgy, instructing that translations from Latin needed to be “in the most exact manner, without omissions or additions in terms of their content.”
That same year, the Vatican established Vox Clara, or Clear Voice, a committee to scrutinize English-language translations of the texts and prayers included in the Roman Missal. The committee advocated a close fidelity to the Latin.
In 2006, the Vatican successfully pressured American bishops to accept a more literal translation of well-known English prayers. In 2011, many English-speaking priests panned their effort, finding the language clunky and archaic.
While noting the unity instilled by the Roman Rite, Francis argued for the beauty and accessibility of local languages. He wrote on Saturday that “vernacular languages themselves, often only in a progressive manner, would be able to become liturgical languages, standing out in a not dissimilar way to liturgical Latin for their elegance of style and the profundity of their concepts with the aim of nourishing the faith.”
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#55
Why would there be such opposition to a more literal translation of the Latin?
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#56
(09-10-2017, 04:06 PM)MichaelNZ Wrote: Why would there be such opposition to a more literal translation of the Latin?

Because it might actually be, God forbid, CATHOLIC?
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#57
http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/20...anslation/


PrayTell is another mainstream Catholic rag affiliated with St. John's Abbey in Minnesota of " Behind the Pine Curtain" fame. 

There's just something so revolting to me about the way the modern Roman Catholic Church has destroyed and continues to destroy its liturgical Patrimony. Make no bones about it the so called Liturgy wars are far from over. Heck, even the fact that there is a such thing as a " liturgist" or " Liturgy Committee" is revolting, as if getting a degree in something based on all the latest fashionable faithless scholarship somehow makes you qualified to play around with the Tradition. 

The thing I find amazing is how much people intuitively understand Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi even if they can't articulate what it means and why it's important. These liberals know darn well that the ancient traditions of the Latin Rite do not jive with the New Theology so they must stop a tradition nothing to make sure it remains buried. 

I'm not sure I believe in any kind of " Magisterium" anymore. I know that the ancient rites contain the Faith of our ancestors, and that as long as we have them in our possession and the tenacity to cling to them irregardless of what any pope, bishop or bishops conference does we will have our Faith. 

As for this Pope and the modern hierarchy, I shake the dust off my feet and walk away with my old books and  dreams. I refuse to be in communion with them. They do not share the same faith.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#58
http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/20...anslation/


PrayTell is another mainstream Catholic rag affiliated with St. John's Abbey in Minnesota of " Behind the Pine Curtain" fame. 

There's just something so revolting to me about the way the modern Roman Catholic Church has destroyed and continues to destroy its liturgical Patrimony. Make no bones about it the so called Liturgy wars are far from over. Heck, even the fact that there is a such thing as a " liturgist" or " Liturgy Committee" is revolting, as if getting a degree in something based on all the latest fashionable faithless scholarship somehow makes you qualified to play around with the Tradition. 

The thing I find amazing is how much people intuitively understand Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi even if they can't articulate what it means and why it's important. These liberals know darn well that the ancient traditions of the Latin Rite do not jive with the New Theology so they must stop at nothing to make sure it remains buried. 

I'm not sure I believe in any kind of " Magisterium" anymore. I know that the ancient rites contain the Faith of our ancestors, and that as long as we have them in our possession and the tenacity to cling to them irregardless of what any pope, bishop or bishops conference does we will have our Faith. 

As for this Pope and the modern hierarchy, I shake the dust off my feet and walk away with my old books and  dreams. I refuse to be in communion with them. They do not share the same faith.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#59
(09-10-2017, 05:17 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: The thing I find amazing is how much people intuitively understand Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi even if they can't articulate what it means and why it's important. These liberals know darn well that the ancient traditions of the Latin Rite do not jive with the New Theology so they must stop at nothing to make sure it remains buried. 

Yes. And they get away with it.

Cardinal Benelli, one of the principal architects of the new liturgy, stated that the new liturgy reflects “another ecclesiology.” 

 “At the end Dr. de Saventham (President of Una Voce) asked the prelate (Cardinal Benelli) whether the traditional liturgy could not be permitted at the side of the new one. The answer was startling: ‘Sir, all these reforms go in the same direction: whereas the old Mass represents another ecclesiology!’ Dr. de Saventham replied, ‘Monseigneur, what you said is an enormity!’"(Christian Order, Oct., 1978.) 

 "...Liturgy and faith are interdependent. That is why a new rite was created, a rite that in many ways reflects the bias of the new (modernist) theology. The traditional liturgy simply could not be allowed to exist in its established form because it was permeated with the truths of the traditional faith and the ancient forms of piety. For this reason alone, much was abolished and new rites, prayers and hymns were introduced, as were the new readings from Scripture, which conveniently left out those passages that did not square with the teachings of modern theology...Was all this really done because of a pastoral concern about the souls of the faithful, or did it not rather represent a radical breach with the traditional rite, to prevent the further use of the liturgical texts and thus to make the celebration of the "Tridentine Mass" impossible because it no longer reflected the new spirit moving through the Church?..." (Monsignor Klaus Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, p. 39, p.61, p. 99, pp. 100-102.)

I am awestruck at their level of audacity though. Some might genuinely believe they are doing good. (I don't see how). Others must either be truly atheists or actively hate the Catholic Faith,and therefore hate God Himself.
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#60
(09-10-2017, 06:29 PM)BC Wrote: I am awestruck at their level of audacity though. Some might genuinely believe they are doing good. (I don't see how). Others must either be truly atheists or actively hate the Catholic Faith,and therefore hate God Himself.
I have no doubt that most of them, whilst possibly not atheists, have an active hatred of the Divine and Catholic Faith,
'once delivered to the saints' (St Jude, 1:3). And, unfortunately, it goes all the way to the top.
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Deum timete, regem honorificate.
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