Must one accept "Baptism of Desire" for unbelievers to be Catholic?
#21
(09-17-2017, 11:58 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: What is meant here (and the only Catholic way to read it) is that one who professes a false religion will not be held culpable for it if he does not possess the malice in his will to adhere to it in the face of contrary evidence. If you think about it this is the same as with any sin. What appears to be a sin is never imputable if there is no will involved. The sin is in the will, not in the matter.

Right, a person would not be held culpable for the sin of heresy or schism or unbelief in that instance, but he would still be lost for other sins that cannot be forgiven without the requisite faith, charity, and contrition (unless he had an enlightening death bed moment conversion).  I'm not sure he would have to be in a situation ever where he is confronted with contrary evidence though.

As Aquinas states:

 “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is.”

“…If, however, we take it by way of pure negation, as we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of sin, but of punishment, because such like ignorance of Divine things is a result of the sin of our first parent. If such like unbelievers are damned it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, but not on account of their sin of unbelief. Hence Our Lord said (Jo. 15:22): ‘If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; which Augustine expounds (Tract. 89 in Joan.) as ‘referring to the sin whereby they believed not in Christ.'” St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2Summa Theologica , II-II, Q. 10, a. 3.

and  St. Augustine:

"Everyone God teaches, He teaches out of pity; but whomever He does not teach, He does not teach them out of justice ... The saving grace of this religion, the only true one, through which alone true salvation is truly promised, has never been refused anyone who was worthy of it; and whoever did lack it was unworthy of it. Consequently, those who have not heard the Gospel, and those who, having heard it, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe in Him ... all of these have perished in death; they all go in one lump into condemnation." (Predestination of the Saints; Admonition and Grace)
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#22
(09-18-2017, 11:34 AM)BC Wrote:
(09-17-2017, 11:58 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: What is meant here (and the only Catholic way to read it) is that one who professes a false religion will not be held culpable for it if he does not possess the malice in his will to adhere to it in the face of contrary evidence. If you think about it this is the same as with any sin. What appears to be a sin is never imputable if there is no will involved. The sin is in the will, not in the matter.

Right, a person would not be held culpable for the sin of heresy or schism or unbelief in that instance, but he would still be lost for other sins that cannot be forgiven without the requisite faith, charity, and contrition (unless he had an enlightening death bed moment conversion).  I'm not sure he would have to be in a situation ever where he is confronted with contrary evidence though.

As Aquinas states:

 “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is.”

“…If, however, we take it by way of pure negation, as we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of sin, but of punishment, because such like ignorance of Divine things is a result of the sin of our first parent. If such like unbelievers are damned it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, but not on account of their sin of unbelief. Hence Our Lord said (Jo. 15:22): ‘If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; which Augustine expounds (Tract. 89 in Joan.) as ‘referring to the sin whereby they believed not in Christ.'” St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2Summa Theologica , II-II, Q. 10, a. 3.

and  St. Augustine:

"Everyone God teaches, He teaches out of pity; but whomever He does not teach, He does not teach them out of justice ... The saving grace of this religion, the only true one, through which alone true salvation is truly promised, has never been refused anyone who was worthy of it; and whoever did lack it was unworthy of it. Consequently, those who have not heard the Gospel, and those who, having heard it, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe in Him ... all of these have perished in death; they all go in one lump into condemnation." (Predestination of the Saints; Admonition and Grace)

And that's not at odds with the correct understanding of "Baptism of Desire".

It presumes Faith, Hope, Contrition and Charity, thus Sanctifying Grace, which presumes the grace of God.

The only thing lacking is the Sacrament of Baptism. The effect of the Sacrament, however, is not restricted to only that one action, just as the effect of Penance is not restricted to Penance (we can make a perfect act of Contrition). God can offer the effect through some second means, which still requires grace.

And the best case we have is not the ignorant pagan on some desert island, but rather, the Catechumen. A pagan who comes to the Church to become a Catholic is not immediately Baptized. First he is instructed in the Faith, because he must profess the Faith, and yet if in waiting for the end of his instruction and Easter to come around he dies, the Church offers him all of the funeral rites restricted to the faithful.
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#23
Thanks for the replies!

It makes sense that invincible ignorance prevents one from having a malice in the will regarding faith.. it also makes sense that they may have other sins, for which they might go to hell for. What I'm wondering is... let's say this person is really of good will, and is invincibly ignorant about the faith, and does have other sins but also tries to live according to natural law.. could they receive perfect contrition for those other sins, and maybe an interior knowledge of these things having been sins, as a miracle? could they receive the truth directly from God, enough just to be saved, even though they might not know more? (for example, I'm thinking how a lot of sins go against natural law too.. so a person could potentially understand that lying, or impurity, etc is sinful, if their conscience is enlightened, even if they don't know anything else..). Any thoughts on that?
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