Has Pope Francis lost jurisdiction?
#21
(12-26-2017, 07:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(12-26-2017, 09:05 AM)Eric F Wrote: We're heading into uncharted territory which the church has never entered before. If an acting Pope openly denies Christ and we still insist that he remains the head of the church, as much as I hate to say it, I'd have to agree at that point with those Protestants who say we put the Pope above Jesus. Bergoglio is already telling people it's ok to commit mortal sin and endanger their souls. We need to seriously consider the magnitude of that.

And perhaps there is some truth their claims that Catholics in the last hundred years or more have been a bit too much unreserved Ultramontanists. It worked well when the Pope was a bastion of orthodoxy, but when the Popes themselves were no longer clearly so, perhaps it's clear we need to have a more refined (and more realistic and traditional) understanding of the Papal Office.

The Correctio Fillialis de Haeresibus Propogatus even referenced the similar correction issued to Pope John XXII over his error with regard to the Beatific Vision (which his successor condemned as outright heresy), yet no one suggested he was not Pope, or somehow lost the authority of Pope because of his material heresy, even after his correction by theologians.

The territory is perhaps uncharted in its material, but the principles of the History and the Faith do still work.

Too often, however, I think we feel the need to find a solution to this problem we see, when it's not really our job to do so. Our job is to learn, believe and practice the Faith and by that to stay in the State of Grace and grow in Virtue, and help others to obtain or stay in that State of Grace and grow in virtue. 

That's the only bit that will matter when our Judgement comes. As St. John of the Cross said, "In the evening of our life we will be judged on Charity." I think today he would have added, "not which man is Pope or how to to fix this grave crisis." 

Fix the crisis in your Faith, help others to do the same for themselves, and that will fix the Church, little by little.
Peace.....well, I am not one on shelving problems when they arise and I don't encourage other to do so either.  At the same time, we need patience and discretion on what to say and when.  People are very hurt by what is going on in the Church and how it affects others especially future generations of children coming up.  There are also those who would like to bring someone into the Church but will not because it is too confused and unstable - and for how long?  Then there is the lifetime of collections$ that have been donated to support those in the hierarchy and positions of screening, teaching and handing on the faith that have also left us disappointed.  We have trusted and now still don't get any final true explanation of what is being said and where we are headed.  We are sitting in a boat with a hole in it, and from what I remember in Scriptures, the Apostles asked a LOT of questions - but they were respected enough to receive an answer.  God bless, angeltime :incense:
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#22
(12-27-2017, 09:13 PM)angeltime Wrote: There are also those who would like to bring someone into the Church but will not because it is too confused and unstable

Well that's certainly not me, and I hope no one either. With potential converts I do my best to minimize any criticisms I have of the Vatican, and I assure each potential convert that they should convert, but must be aware that a major crisis is gong on in the Church.

Catholics should never cease evangelization simply because of the problems going on within the Church and the goofy shenanigans going on in the Vatican.
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#23
(12-27-2017, 10:03 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 09:13 PM)angeltime Wrote: There are also those who would like to bring someone into the Church but will not because it is too confused and unstable

Well that's certainly not me, and I hope no one either.  With potential converts I do my best to minimize any criticisms I have of the Vatican, and I assure each potential convert that they should convert, but must be aware that a major crisis is gong on in the Church.  

Catholics should never cease evangelization simply because of the problems going on within the Church and the goofy shenanigans going on in the Vatican.
Peace.....I agree - to a point - because there is concern about the Liturgy and some changes regarding marriage and communion that need to be settled first I think before someone steps in - just to step out - ? angeltime
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#24
(12-27-2017, 10:06 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:03 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 09:13 PM)angeltime Wrote: There are also those who would like to bring someone into the Church but will not because it is too confused and unstable

Well that's certainly not me, and I hope no one either.  With potential converts I do my best to minimize any criticisms I have of the Vatican, and I assure each potential convert that they should convert, but must be aware that a major crisis is gong on in the Church.  

Catholics should never cease evangelization simply because of the problems going on within the Church and the goofy shenanigans going on in the Vatican.
Peace.....I agree - to a point - because there is concern about the Liturgy and some changes regarding marriage and communion that need to be settled first I think before someone steps in - just to step out - ? angeltime
Completely disagree with all due respect. If I had let the problems of the Liturgy (which is watered down even for a Lutheran), I would never have come into the Church and my life would be greatly impoverished without Her.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
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#25
(12-27-2017, 10:22 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:06 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:03 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 09:13 PM)angeltime Wrote: There are also those who would like to bring someone into the Church but will not because it is too confused and unstable

Well that's certainly not me, and I hope no one either.  With potential converts I do my best to minimize any criticisms I have of the Vatican, and I assure each potential convert that they should convert, but must be aware that a major crisis is gong on in the Church.  

Catholics should never cease evangelization simply because of the problems going on within the Church and the goofy shenanigans going on in the Vatican.
Peace.....I agree - to a point - because there is concern about the Liturgy and some changes regarding marriage and communion that need to be settled first I think before someone steps in - just to step out - ? angeltime
Completely disagree with all due respect. If I had let the problems of the Liturgy (which is watered down even for a Lutheran), I would never have come into the Church and my life would be greatly impoverished without Her.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
Peace....I agree again with your position but also know people who were coming into the Church with certain expectations of belief regarding morals and the way the Liturgy is being done especially or even in Novus Ordo.  However, this has put a hold on them because they do not like the changes or the history going down.  They are concerned about a split and want to be in the right pew so to speak - if one wanted to come into the Church into the Latin Rite, I would not hesitate, but still caution them about what is going on of course.  I have reluctance in introducing them to the Novus Ordo.  angeltime
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#26
(12-27-2017, 11:11 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:22 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:06 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:03 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 09:13 PM)angeltime Wrote: There are also those who would like to bring someone into the Church but will not because it is too confused and unstable

Well that's certainly not me, and I hope no one either.  With potential converts I do my best to minimize any criticisms I have of the Vatican, and I assure each potential convert that they should convert, but must be aware that a major crisis is gong on in the Church.  

Catholics should never cease evangelization simply because of the problems going on within the Church and the goofy shenanigans going on in the Vatican.
Peace.....I agree - to a point - because there is concern about the Liturgy and some changes regarding marriage and communion that need to be settled first I think before someone steps in - just to step out - ? angeltime
Completely disagree with all due respect. If I had let the problems of the Liturgy (which is watered down even for a Lutheran), I would never have come into the Church and my life would be greatly impoverished without Her.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
Peace....I agree again with your position but also know people who were coming into the Church with certain expectations of belief regarding morals and the way the Liturgy is being done especially or even in Novus Ordo.  However, this has put a hold on them because they do not like the changes or the history going down.  They are concerned about a split and want to be in the right pew so to speak - if one wanted to come into the Church into the Latin Rite, I would not hesitate, but still caution them about what is going on of course.  I have reluctance in introducing them to the Novus Ordo.  angeltime
There are solidly traditional Novus Ordos out there. Christ the King in Oklahoma City, EWTN's Masses in Alabama, and Assumption Grotto in Detroit come to mind.
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#27
(12-27-2017, 11:13 PM)In His Love Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 11:11 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:22 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:06 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:03 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 09:13 PM)angeltime Wrote: There are also those who would like to bring someone into the Church but will not because it is too confused and unstable

Well that's certainly not me, and I hope no one either.  With potential converts I do my best to minimize any criticisms I have of the Vatican, and I assure each potential convert that they should convert, but must be aware that a major crisis is gong on in the Church.  

Catholics should never cease evangelization simply because of the problems going on within the Church and the goofy shenanigans going on in the Vatican.
Peace.....I agree - to a point - because there is concern about the Liturgy and some changes regarding marriage and communion that need to be settled first I think before someone steps in - just to step out - ? angeltime
Completely disagree with all due respect. If I had let the problems of the Liturgy (which is watered down even for a Lutheran), I would never have come into the Church and my life would be greatly impoverished without Her.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
Peace....I agree again with your position but also know people who were coming into the Church with certain expectations of belief regarding morals and the way the Liturgy is being done especially or even in Novus Ordo.  However, this has put a hold on them because they do not like the changes or the history going down.  They are concerned about a split and want to be in the right pew so to speak - if one wanted to come into the Church into the Latin Rite, I would not hesitate, but still caution them about what is going on of course.  I have reluctance in introducing them to the Novus Ordo.  angeltime
There are solidly traditional Novus Ordos out there. Christ the King in Oklahoma City, EWTN's Masses in Alabama, and Assumption Grotto in Detroit come to mind.
Peace.....those masses are too far from here.  I have to be frank and tell you I/we have seen and heard too much in a variety of places that is not only questionable, but embarrassing.  In good conscience, I could not introduce someone to it because I cant excuse it.  It's not always possible for people to just keep changing parishes and pastors or try to correct.   angeltime
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#28
(12-27-2017, 11:11 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:22 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:06 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 10:03 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(12-27-2017, 09:13 PM)angeltime Wrote: There are also those who would like to bring someone into the Church but will not because it is too confused and unstable

Well that's certainly not me, and I hope no one either.  With potential converts I do my best to minimize any criticisms I have of the Vatican, and I assure each potential convert that they should convert, but must be aware that a major crisis is gong on in the Church.  

Catholics should never cease evangelization simply because of the problems going on within the Church and the goofy shenanigans going on in the Vatican.
Peace.....I agree - to a point - because there is concern about the Liturgy and some changes regarding marriage and communion that need to be settled first I think before someone steps in - just to step out - ? angeltime
Completely disagree with all due respect. If I had let the problems of the Liturgy (which is watered down even for a Lutheran), I would never have come into the Church and my life would be greatly impoverished without Her.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
Peace....I agree again with your position but also know people who were coming into the Church with certain expectations of belief regarding morals and the way the Liturgy is being done especially or even in Novus Ordo.  However, this has put a hold on them because they do not like the changes or the history going down.  They are concerned about a split and want to be in the right pew so to speak - if one wanted to come into the Church into the Latin Rite, I would not hesitate, but still caution them about what is going on of course.  I have reluctance in introducing them to the Novus Ordo.  angeltime

Ultimately, however, why does one enter the Church?

Is it because they expect some kind of moral teachings, or a particular liturgy?

If so, they're not entering for the right reason. The reason one ought to become a member of the Catholic Church is because it is the only Church instituted by Christ. As a result it is the only means for obtaining the grace necessary to save one's soul -- the dogma : "Outside the Church there is no salvation".

While it might be possible that through some extraordinary process grace possessed by the Church flows onto a soul who is not visibly a member, thus sanctifying them despite their adherence to error, that is rare and never guaranteed.

Yes, we may have to be very careful to help people understand that the Church is going through a crisis right now (we help them with principles, not particulars), but that does not mean it is acceptable to leave people in their errors, and keep them away from the means of salvation.
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#29
angeltime, let's say that you and your friend were living at the time of the Arian crisis. Would you tell your friend not to bother because things are just too confusing, the local priests are preaching that Jesus is not divine, now isn't a good time, etc? Or would you tell your friend to find the most orthodox parish he or she can and to offer up the brokenness and confusion to Our Lord and console His Sacred Heart?
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#30
(12-27-2017, 11:41 PM)In His Love Wrote: angeltime, let's say that you and your friend were living at the time of the Arian crisis. Would you tell your friend not to bother because things are just too confusing, the local priests are preaching that Jesus is not divine, now isn't a good time, etc? Or would you tell your friend to find the most orthodox parish he or she can and to offer up the brokenness and confusion to Our Lord and console His Sacred Heart?
Pax et Bonum!  I would say to find the most orthodox church and offer it up - also do some penance and more private prayer.  No, I would not try to keep someone from salvation - of course not!  However it is important to guide them into a moral path for good footing on good soil.  People are looking for a good example - and not just to "take" from the Church but also to become that good example for others.  We also have to consider the morals someone already has because they could be lowering their standards by coming into this mess.....?  Especially a mess coming from the Hierarchy/clergy.  God bless, angeltime
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