Views on Mustafa Kemal "Atatürk"
#1
His influence on Turkey, Europe and Islam using his principles of "Kemalism"...?

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#2
A turk is a turk.
"Punishment is justice for the unjust." Saint Augustine of Hippo
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#3
(01-06-2018, 03:17 PM)RyanPatrick Wrote: A turk is a turk.

Pretty much my attitude. When I was Serbian Orthodox, the worst insult to offer someone was to call him a turk.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#4
Ataturk is perhaps one of the most enduring and beloved cult of personalities the world has seen. He managed to do something neither Stalin, Mussolini, nor Hitler could do. He, like George Washington to a greater degree, managed to completely change Turkish society from top to bottom and establish himself as a figure to the point of near worship. The only nation in the world that comes close to treating their long dead leader, are the North Koreans with Kim Il-Sung.

Kemalism doesn't have much of an impact on Europe, nor Islam. Kemalism is essentially revolutionary Freemasonry that was imported from Europe for Islamic use. Ba'athism could be seen as a cynical realization of the practices of Turkish Kemalism.
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#5


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#6
(01-06-2018, 03:37 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(01-06-2018, 03:17 PM)RyanPatrick Wrote: A turk is a turk.

Pretty much my attitude. When I was Serbian Orthodox, the worst insult to offer someone was to call him a turk.
Serbian Orthodox...?!!! When...?

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#7
(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Ataturk is perhaps one of the most enduring and beloved cult of personalities the world has seen.  He managed to do something neither Stalin, Mussolini, nor Hitler could do.  He, like George Washington to a greater degree, managed to completely change Turkish society from top to bottom and establish himself as a figure to the point of near worship.  The only nation in the world that comes close to treating their long dead leader, are the North Koreans with Kim Il-Sung.

But I presume, the cult of personality around him actually started developing after his death...? And I read that it was propagated not by the successors of his own political party but by the opposition...! Highly surprising...!!!

(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Kemalism doesn't have much of an impact on Europe, nor Islam. 

It did have for quite a long time... 

Imagine, he just destroyed all aspects of Islam by his "nationalism" policy - forcing the Ottoman Sultan and regime out of power, restricting headscarves (hijabs) in public and Islamic caps (though, he used to wear one), encouraging western European attire, encouraging the Latinized Turkish alphabet which had many European loanwords. restricting Islamic prayer in public and creating a Turkish version of the "adhan" / ezan, stripping off Arabic as the liturgical language, universal suffrage, women's rights, etc. Yeah, it sounds more like of the Novus Ordo version of Islam and Islamic culture but only restricted to Turkey. However, I believe the laws relating to wearing caps and headscarves are no longer in place post 2000. For instance, Mrs. Erdogan herself sticks to Islamic way of clothing.

(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Kemalism is essentially revolutionary Freemasonry that was imported from Europe for Islamic use. Ba'athism could be seen as a cynical realization of the practices of Turkish Kemalism.

So would you imply that Ataturk was a Freemason...? I have heard many conspiracy theories about him coming from a crypto-Jew family but Freemason...?!!! 

But in any case, hardcore Islamism in Turkey was destroyed for good, including the "Caliphate"... All thanks to "Kemalism"...

And if we would go down the timeline of history, wouldn't Kemalism and Ba'athism be a more sane force in politics in the Middle-Eastern - Central Asian world as compared to Islamism which has ravaged the countries in these regions and continue to spread its tentacles in the West....?

P.S. : 

I would like to clarify that I am neither a Freemason nor a supporter of Freemasonry...

Nor do I believe in secularism (separation of Church and state) but I do believe in religious freedom (the only exception of me supporting a blanket ban on headscarves, head coverings and burkas in public unless mandated to be compulsory in religious places of worship or during important religious festivals ; w.r.t. burkas - a big NO )... Though, in our country these aspects are highly debated, considering the diverse religious communities that exist in our sub-continent... 
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#8
(01-11-2018, 03:57 AM)AndreasIosephus Wrote:
(01-06-2018, 03:37 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(01-06-2018, 03:17 PM)RyanPatrick Wrote: A turk is a turk.

Pretty much my attitude. When I was Serbian Orthodox, the worst insult to offer someone was to call him a turk.
Serbian Orthodox...?!!!  When...?

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I was Serbian Orthodox before I became a Catholic in 1980. You can read about it here.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#9
(01-11-2018, 04:27 AM)AndreasIosephus Wrote:
(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Ataturk is perhaps one of the most enduring and beloved cult of personalities the world has seen.  He managed to do something neither Stalin, Mussolini, nor Hitler could do.  He, like George Washington to a greater degree, managed to completely change Turkish society from top to bottom and establish himself as a figure to the point of near worship.  The only nation in the world that comes close to treating their long dead leader, are the North Koreans with Kim Il-Sung.

But I presume, the cult of personality around him actually started developing after his death...? And I read that it was propagated not by the successors of his own political party but by the opposition...! Highly surprising...!!!

His cult formed since he became the dictator of Turkey in the Twenties.  Sure the opposition party made a law against insults towards Ataturk (worship much?), but remember the leaders of the party were most likely young men who grew up with fond memories of the man whom they ideologically disagree with.  Ataturk is like George Washington in the sense that they are seen as founders of their nations, and like Kim Ill-Sung in that Turks practically worship the man.

Quote:
(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Kemalism doesn't have much of an impact on Europe, nor Islam. 

It did have for quite a long time... 

Imagine, he just destroyed all aspects of Islam by his "nationalism" policy - forcing the Ottoman Sultan and regime out of power, restricting headscarves (hijabs) in public and Islamic caps (though, he used to wear one), encouraging western European attire, encouraging the Latinized Turkish alphabet which had many European loanwords. restricting Islamic prayer in public and creating a Turkish version of the "adhan" / ezan, stripping off Arabic as the liturgical language, universal suffrage, women's rights, etc. Yeah, it sounds more like of the Novus Ordo version of Islam and Islamic culture but only restricted to Turkey. However, I believe the laws relating to wearing caps and headscarves are no longer in place post 2000. For instance, Mrs. Erdogan herself sticks to Islamic way of clothing.

It certainly had an enormous effect in Turkey, but Kemalism itself had very little to do with anything outside of Turkey.

Quote:
(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Kemalism is essentially revolutionary Freemasonry that was imported from Europe for Islamic use. Ba'athism could be seen as a cynical realization of the practices of Turkish Kemalism.

So would you imply that Ataturk was a Freemason...? I have heard many conspiracy theories about him coming from a crypto-Jew family but Freemason...?!!! 

But in any case, hardcore Islamism in Turkey was destroyed for good, including the "Caliphate"... All thanks to "Kemalism"...

And if we would go down the timeline of history, wouldn't Kemalism and Ba'athism be a more sane force in politics in the Middle-Eastern - Central Asian world as compared to Islamism which has ravaged the countries in these regions and continue to spread its tentacles in the West....?

Perhaps he was Jewish, but the aspects of Kemalism in regards to religion is fundementally Masonic.  He believed that religion was a personal matter between man and God...who does that sound like?

"While we are contending for our own liberty, we should be very cautious not to violate the conscience of others, ever considering that God alone is the judge of the hearts of men, and to Him only in this case are they answerable."

"Religion is a matter of conscience. One is always free to act according to the will of one's conscience. We (as a nation) are respectful of religion. It is not our intention to curtail freedom of worship, but rather to ensure that matters of religion and those of the state do not become intertwined."


Can you distinguish the difference between these two quotes?  One is from George Washington and the other Ataturk

I disagree that Islamism was destroyed in Turkey, if anything Erdogan's Putin-esque style of governance has proven that Islam is returning in large strides.  I disagree with secularism Arabism as being more "saner" in the same aspect that I agree that America's definition of Christianity being more "saner" than a Russian-Orthodox one.  Christian persecution and slaughters occur in secular governments just as well as religious ones.  If anything democracy has been one of the greatest threats to the Christian minority populations in Arab regions.
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#10
(01-11-2018, 08:30 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(01-11-2018, 04:27 AM)AndreasIosephus Wrote:
(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Ataturk is perhaps one of the most enduring and beloved cult of personalities the world has seen.  He managed to do something neither Stalin, Mussolini, nor Hitler could do.  He, like George Washington to a greater degree, managed to completely change Turkish society from top to bottom and establish himself as a figure to the point of near worship.  The only nation in the world that comes close to treating their long dead leader, are the North Koreans with Kim Il-Sung.

But I presume, the cult of personality around him actually started developing after his death...? And I read that it was propagated not by the successors of his own political party but by the opposition...! Highly surprising...!!!
(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Kemalism doesn't have much of an impact on Europe, nor Islam. 

It did have for quite a long time... 

Imagine, he just destroyed all aspects of Islam by his "nationalism" policy - forcing the Ottoman Sultan and regime out of power, restricting headscarves (hijabs) in public and Islamic caps (though, he used to wear one), encouraging western European attire, encouraging the Latinized Turkish alphabet which had many European loanwords. restricting Islamic prayer in public and creating a Turkish version of the "adhan" / ezan, stripping off Arabic as the liturgical language, universal suffrage, women's rights, etc. Yeah, it sounds more like of the Novus Ordo version of Islam and Islamic culture but only restricted to Turkey. However, I believe the laws relating to wearing caps and headscarves are no longer in place post 2000. For instance, Mrs. Erdogan herself sticks to Islamic way of clothing.
(01-10-2018, 01:16 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Kemalism is essentially revolutionary Freemasonry that was imported from Europe for Islamic use. Ba'athism could be seen as a cynical realization of the practices of Turkish Kemalism.

So would you imply that Ataturk was a Freemason...? I have heard many conspiracy theories about him coming from a crypto-Jew family but Freemason...?!!! 

But in any case, hardcore Islamism in Turkey was destroyed for good, including the "Caliphate"... All thanks to "Kemalism"...

And if we would go down the timeline of history, wouldn't Kemalism and Ba'athism be a more sane force in politics in the Middle-Eastern - Central Asian world as compared to Islamism which has ravaged the countries in these regions and continue to spread its tentacles in the West....?
[/quote]

Perhaps he was Jewish, but the aspects of Kemalism in regards to religion is fundementally Masonic.  He believed that religion was a personal matter between man and God...who does that sound like?

"While we are contending for our own liberty, we should be very cautious not to violate the conscience of others, ever considering that God alone is the judge of the hearts of men, and to Him only in this case are they answerable."

"Religion is a matter of conscience. One is always free to act according to the will of one's conscience. We (as a nation) are respectful of religion. It is not our intention to curtail freedom of worship, but rather to ensure that matters of religion and those of the state do not become intertwined."


Can you distinguish the difference between these two quotes?  One is from George Washington and the other Ataturk

I disagree that Islamism was destroyed in Turkey, if anything Erdogan's Putin-esque style of governance has proven that Islam is returning in large strides.  I disagree with secularism Arabism as being more "saner" in the same aspect that I agree that America's definition of Christianity being more "saner" than a Russian-Orthodox one.  Christian persecution and slaughters occur in secular governments just as well as religious ones.  If anything democracy has been one of the greatest threats to the Christian minority populations in Arab regions.
[/quote]So would you say that Atatürk was a Freemason...? And how could that be connected with his crypto-Jewishness...?

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