Putting Pope Francis into Perspective
#31
Thankfully, Frank hasn't reached the level of "... accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope...".

There are a number of Bishops, Cardinals and faithful who view pope Frank as having too many scales.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
#32
(01-30-2018, 07:56 PM)Zedta Wrote: Thankfully, Frank hasn't reached the level of "... accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope...".

There are a number of Bishops, Cardinals and faithful who view pope Frank as having too many scales.

Can you provide me with a source which shows even one Cardinal or Bishop who rejected the election of Pope Francis upon his Papal election?
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#33
(01-30-2018, 03:39 PM)Zedta Wrote:
(01-30-2018, 03:24 PM)VoiceInTheWilderness Wrote:
(01-30-2018, 12:19 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(01-30-2018, 12:09 PM)Zedta Wrote:
(01-30-2018, 10:37 AM)VoiceInTheWilderness Wrote: Your pathetic, petty, and disrespectful attitude towards the Vicar of Christ on earth speaks far more about you, than about the Holy Father, our beloved Pope Francis.

Thank you. I remain Pathetic and petty! But Frank is not the true "Vicar of Christ on Earth", so I can be disrespectful as much as I wish with impunity and with a sense of necessity.
So let me get this straight. You are 1) sedevacantist, 2) someone who believes that Benedict is still Pope despite Canon Law, or 3) a non-Catholic, and you're upset that someone has pointed out Francis' heterodox teachings?
So Zedta if Pope Francis is not the "Vicar of Christ on Earth" who do you say is?  Perhaps Zedta??

Perhaps your 'pithiness' is a result of an innate inability to thoroughly read the writings of them that you accuse. I have stated, maybe thrice on this thread and now for perhaps a fourth time, whom I believe is the true "Vicar of Christ on Earth": Pope Benedict XVI, the last 'validly' elected Pope, IMHO. Your intimation that I may be is cockamamie.
One little problem, pretend-pope Zedta, Benedict XVI resigned.   But don't let facts get in your way.
#34
Abused children have denied being abused. I'd think that if you forced someone to resign from a position of authority, the first thing you'd demand of them is that they say the resignation was voluntary. 

                                                                     “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.”
                                                                      Pope Benedict XVI at his 1st mass as Pope.
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#35
I've never explored the claims of Benedict XVI still being pope but it's interesting to ponder.  

All in all the fact that Zedta (and he's NOT alone! ) is bothered by the clear false and bizarre words and antics of Francis speaks volumes about the state of the Church. 

I can tell you honestly that i simply cannot suspend judgement just because this man is allegedly pope. I cannot excuse many of his words or actions nor can I square many of them with what was taught prior to Vatican II. 

It's a new church with new teachings and some of us just will no longer try to play the games with legalese and mental and verbal gymnastics to make excuses for what appears to be the papally led dismemberment and mutilation of Roman Catholicism. 

Some of us love the Western Patrimony but find that it really only lives on in memories, hopes and dusty old books.  At what point do you simply shake the dust off your feet and go your way?   I know that for those just converted or who just discovered the trad  world might think they have all the answers, but for some of who have walked this path for awhile we just feel broken down and simply cannot be convinced.  it's actually easier to stay away from the noxious air of Vatican II and modern parishes than it is to try and live out of old books and imagination in midst of so much deliberate papally led destruction and subversion of practically every aspect of the once strong, proud Roman Catholic faith.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#36
(01-31-2018, 04:00 AM)Dave01 Wrote:
(01-30-2018, 07:56 PM)Zedta Wrote: Thankfully, Frank hasn't reached the level of "... accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope...".

There are a number of Bishops, Cardinals and faithful who view pope Frank as having too many scales.

Can you provide me with a source which shows even one Cardinal or Bishop who rejected the election of Pope Francis upon his Papal election?

Please rethink your question. Think about what kind fight you are talking about here. You could have found a lot on the subject, but a quick internet search found the article at the end, for just one.

Of course there is no one in the clergy coming out and directly denying the pope's validity. That would be ecclesiastic suicide. This fella in the Chair has some deep globalist ties that went trough some very difficult and costly maneuvering to get him where he is. They won't let him leave without a fight and Frank's opposition knows they have to tread very carefully. The globalists want the Church in chaos and that is what he is up to, it keeps the Church from fighting the New World Order with any effectiveness, especially after the Communists succeeded in infiltrating the Church and Seminaries with Homosexual Pedophiles and nearly ruining Her credibility. The Masons continue their onslaught on 'The Citadel'.

Look what suspiciously happened to the first group of cardinals who merely challenged Frank's embarrassing Amoris Laetitia:

The four cardinals who challenged the pope over Amoris Laetitia were Carlo Caffarra, former archbishop of Bologna; Raymond Burke, spiritual patron of the Order of Malta, Walter Brandmüller; former president of the Pontifical Committee for Historical Sciences; and Joachim Meisner, former archbishop of Cologne.

Burke was soon after the challenge, relieved of his duties as spiritual patron over the Order of Malta, from many years ago, that curiously suddenly surfaced. Caffarra and Meisner have since died.


Then there are these five Prelates that are again taking up the task of calling out Frank. It remains to be seen what may become of them:

Quote:Link to Original Article

 
Five Novus Ordo Bishops yap at Francis over Amoris Laetitia
January 4, 2018




New year picks up where old year left off…
Five Novus Ordo Bishops yap at Francis
over Amoris Laetitia
[Image: peta-lenga-schneider-vigano-negri-francis.png]

[UPDATE 06-JAN-2018: Retired “Bishop” Andreas Laun of Austria signs Kazakh Profession]

[UPDATE 05-JAN-2018: Retired “Cardinal” Janis Pujats adds his signature to Kazakh Profession]

It is now 2018, and the international soap opera known as Amoris Laetitia enters into its third season. On April 8 of this year, it will have been 2 years since “Pope” Francis released this heretical, blasphemous, and truly infernal document, and there is not a single “bishop” in the Novus Ordo Sect who will stand up and denounce its author as a manifest anti-pope.

The latest episode in this never-ending story comes from the Central Asian country of Kazakhstan, where on Dec. 31, 2017, “Archbishops” Tomash Peta and Jan Pawel Lenga and “Bishop” Athansius Schneider released a document they labeled “Profession of the Immutable Truths about Sacramental Marriage”. The 2,381-word statement was first published in English on Jan. 2, 2018, and can be found here: The statement — let’s call it the “Kazakh Profession” — essentially amounts to a clear refutation of the main sophistical arguments put forward in Amoris Laetitia and in various essays and books published in support of it. While a number of the sources the three Kazakh “bishops” use to refute the Bergoglian errors are genuinely Catholic, the majority of them are magisterial texts of the pre-Francis Novus Ordo magisterium.

After laying out the truth about Holy Matrimony, adultery, and the reception of the sacraments, the Kazakh Profession culminates in the following affirmation:
Quote:It is not licit (non licet) to justify, approve, or legitimize either directly or indirectly divorce and a non-conjugal stable sexual relationship through the sacramental discipline of the admission of so-called “divorced and remarried” to Holy Communion, in this case a discipline alien to the entire Tradition of the Catholic and Apostolic faith.

Since the release of this statement, the usual hullabaloo has kicked in. The semi-trad web site One Peter Five described it as a “bang” with which the new year was supposedly starting off; various Novus Ordo news sites (such as Life Site and Crux) reported on it; and Francis admirer Stephen Walford immediately rushed to his man’s defense.

But not everyone sees the Kazakh Profession as particularly significant. Resignationist Louie Verrecchio, for example, criticized the statement as nothing more than a toothless tiger that is afraid to even identify by name the heretic-in-chief who has created the entire problem in the first place:
Quote:As just a casual reading of their text reveals, the authors of the “Profession” are so Hell bent and determined to avoid mentioning by name, much less blaming, the heretic-in-chief who created this mess that it’s embarrassing.

Forget the headlines and the news reports – the hero-bishops don’t utter even a peep about “the Pope’s reading” or “the Pope’s interpretation” of Amoris Laetitia.

Even if they did, the very suggestion that Francis is misreading or misinterpreting the text of his own personal Love Letter to Lucifer is patently absurd.
…[A] singular mention of “the supreme authority” is as close as the bishops dare come to identifying the actual perpetrator of this unprecedented attack against the Catholic faith.
(Louie Verrecchio, “The ‘Profession’ of the Kazakhstani Bishops”, AKA Catholic, Jan. 3, 2018; italics given.)

Shortly after the Kazakh Profession was released, two more high-profile Novus Ordo clerics came out in support of it: The Vatican’s former Nuncio to the United States, “Archbishop” Carlo Maria Viganò, and “Archbishop” Luigi Negri, formerly the head of the Modernist Archdiocese of Ferrara-Comacchio, Italy. Both of them are retired.

Of course it wasn’t going to take long before someone would publish an interview with one of the three Kazakh “bishops”, and on Jan. 4, Rorate Caeli did exactly that: In this lackluster exchange, Schneider disappoints all who were hoping for some eventual “deposition” of Francis at the hands of “Cardinal” Burke, “Bishop” Schneider, or some other group of Novus Ordo clerics who are popularly perceived as conservative or even traditional simply because they oppose adultery and use more incense than the rest. No, Schneider’s solution is that “[o]ne has to continue to profess the immutable faith and pray still more for the Pope and, then, only God can intervene and He will do this unquestionably.” That’s very reassuring, and the last 59 years have shown how successful that strategy is. It is also a testimony to how much the Kazakh Novus Ordo bishop believes in the Papacy as being the rock against which the gates of hell will not prevail (cf. Mt 16:18).

At the same time, of course, Schneider is stuck between a rock and a hard place — because if Francis really is Pope, as he believes, then he is entirely correct in saying that no one can judge or remove him: As long as Francis is accepted as Pope, he will win. That much is guaranteed. With Peta, Lenga, Schneider, Vigano, and Negri, you may have five Novus Ordo bishops now directly opposing Francis’ “mercy” agenda for adulterers, but since they work in communion with and under him, recognizing him as the Vicar of Christ, they will ultimately lose.

[Image: five-guys-with-bergoglian-ties1.png]

What will be the upshot of all this? In the long run, probably nothing. For the next few weeks, you will find journalists and commentators running around like chickens with their heads cut off, but after the initial excitement subsides, nothing will come of it, except perhaps Francis announcing some personnel changes in Central Asia.

So, expect lots of discussion about this in the Novus Ordo and semi-trad blogosphere; expect a few EWTN broadcasts with Raymond Arroyo on the “fallout” from the Kazakh Profession; expect more interviews with “Cardinals” Raymond Burke, Gerhard Ludwig Muller, and Walter Brandmuller; expect rumors about Francis losing his temper at the Casa Santa Marta, and so on. But while everyone will be busy excitedly looking for and talking about all these developments, the apostasy in Rome will quietly continue unabated as before. That’s how it’s been in the past, and there is no reason it should be any different this time around.

Just remember that when the Filial Correction was released on Sep. 24 of last year, all hell broke loose for a short while, but ultimately — and quite predictably — it accomplished absolutely nothing, other than giving journalists and bloggers a lot of work and a lot of web site hits: Since Apr. 8, 2016, we’ve been chronicling the neverending chaos generated by Amoris Laetitia in a special “chaos watch” page, which links to the most important stories and developments on the topic and is thus continually updated: Please, let’s not make 2018 yet another year of headlines along the lines of, “VIPs ask Pope to clarify Teaching on Communion for Divorced-and-Remarried”, “Cardinal Burke gives Interview, hints Fraternal Correction could come later this year”, or, “Did the Pope just answer the Dubia?”.

From this day forward, expect no prominent coverage on this web site of any of such stories until something significant actually takes place.

The controversy over Francis’ Amoris Laetitia demonstrates beyond any shadow of a doubt that it is not possible to accept Francis as a valid Pope and still be a Catholic. Yesterday’s dissenters have become today’s “papal” cheerleaders, and yesterday’s “papal” cheerleaders have become today’s dissenters. All of this is possible only because a public heretic is being accepted as a true Pope. It is not a popular observation, to be sure, but that is ultimately the root cause of it all.

Accepting a man as Pope has consequences, and when that man is a public heretic, the consequences are disastrous. People must finally realize that, no matter how much they may “resist” Francis, if they recognize him as a true Pope, they are just as much part of the problem as those who accept his teachings. As we said in a blog post 19 months ago, do not complain about the “Undertaker Pope” if at the same time you’re busy leading people to the graveyard in the first place.

Recognition of Francis as Pope is the linchpin that holds the whole madhouse together. Only once it is removed will the whole thing finally collapse.

By the way, where were all these supposed conservative and traditionalist defenders of the Faith when “Saint” John Paul II allowed Holy Communion to be given to Protestants?
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
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#37
(01-31-2018, 11:04 AM)VoiceInTheWilderness Wrote: One little problem, pretend-pope Zedta, Benedict XVI resigned.   But don't let facts get in your way.

Your responses indicate that I am in conversation with a child. A child who does not read the posts of others or they wouldn't make such childlike responses.

Please go away child, I don't have time to mess with you. You are a bother.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
#38
Isn't it Cardinal Pell, not Cardinal Burke, who had to return to Australia to face sex abuse charges?
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#39
(02-01-2018, 10:32 AM)Bonaventure Wrote: Isn't it Cardinal Pell, not Cardinal Burke, who had to return to Australia to face sex abuse charges?

You are right. My mistake. Correction made. Thanks for pointing it out!
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
#40
(01-31-2018, 07:58 PM)Zedta Wrote:
(01-31-2018, 04:00 AM)Dave01 Wrote:
(01-30-2018, 07:56 PM)Zedta Wrote: Thankfully, Frank hasn't reached the level of "... accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope...".

There are a number of Bishops, Cardinals and faithful who view pope Frank as having too many scales.

Can you provide me with a source which shows even one Cardinal or Bishop who rejected the election of Pope Francis upon his Papal election?

Please rethink your question. Think about what kind fight you are talking about here. You could have found a lot on the subject, but a quick internet search found the article at the end, for just one.

*Inserts articles proving that Pope Francis is*

1. A poor Pope
2. A vengeful person
3. Someone with little command of Catholic doctrine
4. Someone who may have come into the Papacy due to backroom deals and threats
5. Etc.

Unfortunately, what you MUST prove, in order to be able to posit the argument that the election of Pope Francis was invalid, is none of these things. Again, I repeat:

Can you prove to me that Pope Francis was not accepted by every single Cardinal and Bishop as the Pope upon his election (which technically isn't even necessary, as moral unanimity, not numerical unanimity is the criteria for acception)?" 


Quote:“It is of no importance that in past centuries some Pontiff was illegitimately elected or took possession of the Pontificate by fraud; it is enough that he was accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope, since by such acceptance he would have become the true Pontiff.” St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church

If you are suggesting this is the wrong question to be asking (probably because you know the answer is "No"), then you are placing yourself in a position not only to be judging the status of the Roman Pontiff entirely upon your own authority, but also to be doing so while directly contradicting a Doctor of the Church. 

The question of whether Pope Francis was validly elected Pope, is entirely seperate from, and has  nothing to do with the following questions:

1. Is Pope Francis a good Pope?
2. Is Pope Francis a Freemason?
3. Was there a conspiracy to elect Pope Francis?
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