Divinum Officium - Roman Breviary
#11
(02-02-2018, 11:02 PM)angeltime Wrote: Peace.....I love praying the Divine Office; it is the Word of God speaking to me each day & it's awesome when we are in perfect sync!  You are right about the Martyrology teaching us about the former Saints who went through much that we are going through too.  As for Adoration, this is not the same now in the NO Church - it is very watered down and people are using many vocal prayers during Adoration when it is a time for "listening" - Speak Lord, your servant is listening.....best to stay with a Traditional Parish/Chapel for Masses, Vespers and Adoration.  I notice the NO Church never even says the word Vespers!  It is such a beautiful mystical time of prayer and where did it go??  (Where have they taken my Lord?) By the way, I am a laywoman - haha!! God bless, angeltime -  :monstrance:

I am bound to the 1960 Breviary or the unreformed Carmelite Office, and since I don't have a full Carmelite Breviary, I pray the Roman. I do say the old Carmelite LOBVM.


As far as Adoration is concerned, I suppose a lot depends on where you are. In my Parish (and I would assume the whole Diocese), Adoration is absolutely quiet except for Benediction at the end. Of course, we also don't have aimless chatter in the Church before and after Mass.

As for Vespers, it was blown away by the 'Spirit of Vatican II'. The Council actually said,


Quote:100. Pastors of souls should see to it that the chief hours, especially Vespers, are celebrated in common in church on Sundays and the more solemn feasts. And the laity, too, are encouraged to recite the divine office, either with the priests, or among themselves, or even individually.-Decree on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium 
When was the last time you heard a Priest in an NO Church suggest the laity recite the Liturgy of the Hours?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#12
(02-03-2018, 12:45 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(02-02-2018, 11:02 PM)angeltime Wrote: Peace.....I love praying the Divine Office; it is the Word of God speaking to me each day & it's awesome when we are in perfect sync!  You are right about the Martyrology teaching us about the former Saints who went through much that we are going through too.  As for Adoration, this is not the same now in the NO Church - it is very watered down and people are using many vocal prayers during Adoration when it is a time for "listening" - Speak Lord, your servant is listening.....best to stay with a Traditional Parish/Chapel for Masses, Vespers and Adoration.  I notice the NO Church never even says the word Vespers!  It is such a beautiful mystical time of prayer and where did it go??  (Where have they taken my Lord?) By the way, I am a laywoman - haha!! God bless, angeltime -  :monstrance:

I am bound to the 1960 Breviary or the unreformed Carmelite Office, and since I don't have a full Carmelite Breviary, I pray the Roman. I do say the old Carmelite LOBVM.


As far as Adoration is concerned, I suppose a lot depends on where you are. In my Parish (and I would assume the whole Diocese), Adoration is absolutely quiet except for Benediction at the end. Of course, we also don't have aimless chatter in the Church before and after Mass.

As for Vespers, it was blown away by the 'Spirit of Vatican II'. The Council actually said,


Quote:100. Pastors of souls should see to it that the chief hours, especially Vespers, are celebrated in common in church on Sundays and the more solemn feasts. And the laity, too, are encouraged to recite the divine office, either with the priests, or among themselves, or even individually.-Decree on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium 
When was the last time you heard a Priest in an NO Church suggest the laity recite the Liturgy of the Hours?
Peace....you are blessed to have the quiet atmosphere in your parish!  :)
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#13
(02-03-2018, 12:45 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(02-02-2018, 11:02 PM)angeltime Wrote: Peace.....I love praying the Divine Office; it is the Word of God speaking to me each day & it's awesome when we are in perfect sync!  You are right about the Martyrology teaching us about the former Saints who went through much that we are going through too.  As for Adoration, this is not the same now in the NO Church - it is very watered down and people are using many vocal prayers during Adoration when it is a time for "listening" - Speak Lord, your servant is listening.....best to stay with a Traditional Parish/Chapel for Masses, Vespers and Adoration.  I notice the NO Church never even says the word Vespers!  It is such a beautiful mystical time of prayer and where did it go??  (Where have they taken my Lord?) By the way, I am a laywoman - haha!! God bless, angeltime -  :monstrance:

I am bound to the 1960 Breviary or the unreformed Carmelite Office, and since I don't have a full Carmelite Breviary, I pray the Roman. I do say the old Carmelite LOBVM.


As far as Adoration is concerned, I suppose a lot depends on where you are. In my Parish (and I would assume the whole Diocese), Adoration is absolutely quiet except for Benediction at the end. Of course, we also don't have aimless chatter in the Church before and after Mass.

As for Vespers, it was blown away by the 'Spirit of Vatican II'. The Council actually said,


Quote:100. Pastors of souls should see to it that the chief hours, especially Vespers, are celebrated in common in church on Sundays and the more solemn feasts. And the laity, too, are encouraged to recite the divine office, either with the priests, or among themselves, or even individually.-Decree on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium 
When was the last time you heard a Priest in an NO Church suggest the laity recite the Liturgy of the Hours?

The NO parish I used to go to in Alexandria, VA, had LOTH Vespers before their 5pm Sunday Mass every week. It was not sung, but the pastor did lead the service. My mother-in-law used to have her parish's RCIA class pray Compline after their meetings, but the pastor made them stop (!) and ordered it replaced with a Rosary. I can guarantee, knowing my MIL, that nothing liturgically untoward was happening. Nothing wrong with or unnatural about a Rosary in a Latin rite parish, of course, but what in the world could be the opposition to Compline?
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
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#14
(02-03-2018, 05:54 PM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(02-03-2018, 12:45 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(02-02-2018, 11:02 PM)angeltime Wrote: Peace.....I love praying the Divine Office; it is the Word of God speaking to me each day & it's awesome when we are in perfect sync!  You are right about the Martyrology teaching us about the former Saints who went through much that we are going through too.  As for Adoration, this is not the same now in the NO Church - it is very watered down and people are using many vocal prayers during Adoration when it is a time for "listening" - Speak Lord, your servant is listening.....best to stay with a Traditional Parish/Chapel for Masses, Vespers and Adoration.  I notice the NO Church never even says the word Vespers!  It is such a beautiful mystical time of prayer and where did it go??  (Where have they taken my Lord?) By the way, I am a laywoman - haha!! God bless, angeltime -  :monstrance:

I am bound to the 1960 Breviary or the unreformed Carmelite Office, and since I don't have a full Carmelite Breviary, I pray the Roman. I do say the old Carmelite LOBVM.


As far as Adoration is concerned, I suppose a lot depends on where you are. In my Parish (and I would assume the whole Diocese), Adoration is absolutely quiet except for Benediction at the end. Of course, we also don't have aimless chatter in the Church before and after Mass.

As for Vespers, it was blown away by the 'Spirit of Vatican II'. The Council actually said,


Quote:100. Pastors of souls should see to it that the chief hours, especially Vespers, are celebrated in common in church on Sundays and the more solemn feasts. And the laity, too, are encouraged to recite the divine office, either with the priests, or among themselves, or even individually.-Decree on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium 
When was the last time you heard a Priest in an NO Church suggest the laity recite the Liturgy of the Hours?

The NO parish I used to go to in Alexandria, VA, had LOTH Vespers before their 5pm Sunday Mass every week. It was not sung, but the pastor did lead the service. My mother-in-law used to have her parish's RCIA class pray Compline after their meetings, but the pastor made them stop (!) and ordered it replaced with a Rosary. I can guarantee, knowing my MIL, that nothing liturgically untoward was happening. Nothing wrong with or unnatural about a Rosary in a Latin rite parish, of course, but what in the world could be the opposition to Compline?
Peace.....just a guess about yr mother-in-law's RCIA class praying Compline - what time did the class end?  Compline is generally prayed about 8:00 pm - ish.....Was it an evening RCIA class?  Also, some pastors are reluctant to getting anything extra  going they dont want, so nip it in the bud.  What is LOTH Vespers? Tks, angeltime :incense:
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#15
(02-02-2018, 03:05 PM)angeltime Wrote: Peace.....tks!  all interesting responses - I was told by a priest yesterday it is important to include the Martyrology too with Prime.  I am enjoying the Offices and use Tridentine 1570.....is that good?  God bless! :monstrance:

The Martyrology is worth reading, but it's optional outside of Choir.

The 1570 version is good, although you miss out on, well, all the saints that were canonised since then. But it does have the traditional Psalter, and a good number of ferias. I don't think the site has the correct Lessons for the 1570 version, though - many of them, including almost all the Scripture readings and many of the homilies, were shortened in the 1604 Breviary, and it's the shorter versions that are still used up until 1960. For example, today's first Lesson, in the 1570 version, begins with verse 12, Vixit quoque Cáinan, rather than verse 15, Vixit autem Maláleel.
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#16
(02-03-2018, 08:59 PM)Paul Wrote:
(02-02-2018, 03:05 PM)angeltime Wrote: Peace.....tks!  all interesting responses - I was told by a priest yesterday it is important to include the Martyrology too with Prime.  I am enjoying the Offices and use Tridentine 1570.....is that good?  God bless! :monstrance:

The Martyrology is worth reading, but it's optional outside of Choir.

The 1570 version is good, although you miss out on, well, all the saints that were canonised since then. But it does have the traditional Psalter, and a good number of ferias. I don't think the site has the correct Lessons for the 1570 version, though - many of them, including almost all the Scripture readings and many of the homilies, were shortened in the 1604 Breviary, and it's the shorter versions that are still used up until 1960. For example, today's first Lesson, in the 1570 version, begins with verse 12, Vixit quoque Cáinan, rather than verse 15, Vixit autem Maláleel.
Peace.....tks for yr response.  I do get concerned and feel it is a large part of the prob today in our prayers and liturgy of having prayers with the shorter versions - I can understand in special circumstances, but the danger is falling back too much and then altogether.  This probably has less risk for those in community following a schedule, however for us living alone or even getting together on occasion with another, there can be a tendency to fall back.  As for shorter versions too, they become weaker versions in my mind - losing the depth and at times even a more complete meaning.  Do you agree?  angeltime
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#17
(02-03-2018, 06:46 PM)angeltime Wrote:   What is LOTH Vespers? Tks, angeltime :incense:

Compline from the Liturgy of the Hours (LOTH), the post-Conciliar reformed Office. A friend of mine once referred to the LOTH as 'McOffice'. :D
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#18
(02-03-2018, 09:07 PM)angeltime Wrote: As for shorter versions too, they become weaker versions in my mind - losing the depth and at times even a more complete meaning.  Do you agree?  angeltime

They can, and I do think that's especially true in the LOTH, where the removed bits are those that are uncomfortable for the 'Church of Nice', like Psalm 108. And I do think way too much was removed in the 1960 Breviary, particularly on Sundays. There's absolutely no reason that Sunday should be an Office of three Lessons, and there are even some Homilies which set up a question in the seventh Lesson and then answer it in the eighth and ninth. In the 1960 Office, you only get Lesson vii.

I don't have as much of an opinion on the shortening done in 1604, mainly because I'm not familiar with how the Office was before 1570. And since I started praying the Office with the post-1911 version, I'm used to the shorter version (and, for that matter, the revised Hymns). Overall, it was shortened by about a quarter; the material removed would have been enough for a fourth Lesson. The historical Lessons of Saints in the II Nocturn weren't touched, although a few have been revised over the years, and there are a few days where new Lessons have been appointed, which I think mostly happened during a reform in the 1700s.
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