Is Francis trying to destroy the Church?
#11
I have no doubt that he is trying to destroy the Church, and every day, in my Morning Offering and in my Rosary intentions, I pray for his return to the Catholic Faith.
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#12
(02-04-2018, 09:08 AM)dove77 Wrote:
(02-04-2018, 02:41 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: It really seems that Francis is trying to destroy the Church. If he is not evil himself, he certainly seems complicit in it because of all the things that unfaithful bishops and priests say and do without repercussions or even a response. Under Benedict XVI, the way of dealing with them seemed to be to simply wait them out, and replace them with good bishops. One problem, HE quit.  Another problem, HE and John Paul II appointed today’s bad bishops and cardinals. These aren’t leftovers from the early-mid 70’s. 

I’ve said before that one of John Paul II’s most serious faults was that that it was incredibly easy to suck up to him. Although to a much lesser degree, I think this was true of Benedict XVI as well. Francis makes people show their true colors, because his ideology is so different. If there isn’t a good enough pope in the near future who will put them all in their places, then at least those of us who are orthodox will know who to trust as faithful shepherds and who to regard as politicians who simply test the direction of the wind and run that way ahead of everyone else.

I don't doubt the Pope on anything, he makes me think deeper about things and then I see how perfectly lined up with Christ he is with his actions. The church is being renewed, the dirt is being stirred and dug up and tossed around, before the Pope it was growing stagnant and growing lifeless.
Peace.....being that he is the Pope and has said, "I am the Pope and can do anything I want" - he could certainly clean up the Church in a better manner - simply by firing the bad guys instead of the good guys, putting an end to watered-down Masses - even if it brings us down to much smaller numbers - at least there would be quality instead of quantity!  As for being in line with Jesus - Jesus never double-talked or was vague - he was very direct and to the point because he had a limited time to do his mission on earth - he also said, "How long must I be with this perverse generation?"  While Jesus loved and accepted everyone, they were to conform to his teachings not he conform to their teachings and bad habits.  God bless, angeltime
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#13
(02-04-2018, 09:01 AM)maso Wrote:
(02-04-2018, 02:41 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: It really seems that Francis is trying to destroy the Church. If he is not evil himself, he certainly seems complicit in it because of all the things that unfaithful bishops and priests say and do without repercussions or even a response. Under Benedict XVI, the way of dealing with them seemed to be to simply wait them out, and replace them with good bishops. One problem, HE quit.  Another problem, HE and John Paul II appointed today’s bad bishops and cardinals. These aren’t leftovers from the early-mid 70’s. 

I’ve said before that one of John Paul II’s most serious faults was that that it was incredibly easy to suck up to him. Although to a much lesser degree, I think this was true of Benedict XVI as well. Francis makes people show their true colors, because his ideology is so different. If there isn’t a good enough pope in the near future who will put them all in their places, then at least those of us who are orthodox will know who to trust as faithful shepherds and who to regard as politicians who simply test the direction of the wind and run that way ahead of everyone else.
 
..."At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavor to draw many into error and death."
..."for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true pastor, but a destroyer.”

Read the the prophecy of Saint Francis of Assisi by Lucas Wadding in a 17th cent. book
"B.P. Francisci Assisiatis Opuscula" per Fr.Lucam Waddingum
The latin text of the prophecy is on pages 480-81-82:
"Prophetia XIV" : "Magnum in Ecclesia schisma et tribulationem futuram"
To download the original copy of this book:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=NHlMAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr#v=onepage&q=452&f=false

This prohpecy has been debunked as false.

As you find in the 1906 Edition of its translation (The Writings of Saint Francis of Assisi, newly translated into English with an Introduction and Notes by Father Paschal Robinson (Philadelphia: The Dolphin Press, 1906), the author writes in the Preface the following :

Quote:Wadding’s edition of the Opuscula differs mainly from all preceding collections in this, that whereas the latter contained only those pieces which as regards both matter and form were the handiwork of St. Francis, Wadding felt justified in including among St. Francis’ writings many dicta of the Saint found in the early Legends. …


Thus it comes to pass that in Wadding’s edition, side by side with the undisputed writings of St. Francis, we find doubtful, even spurious, extracts from different sources attributed to the Seraphic Father. It must ever remain a matter of regret that Wadding, instead of following the oldest MSS. that he had at hand, was content to transcribe the incomplete and often interpolated parts of them he found in second-hand compilations, like that of Mark of Lisbon. His work from our standpoint is vitiated by imperfect research and unreliable criticism.

This prophecy is one of those works uniquely found in this Opuscula and in no other work.

The more reliable Catholics "scholars" on the subject of prophecy, such as Desmond Birch and Emmett O’Reagan also have written that they believe this "prophecy" is not from St. Francis. It would make a great deal of sense that it is a false attribution from the Fraticelli, since they were keen to show the Popes that condemned them and supported the Franciscans as "destoyers".

A further problem for the application of this to the present : Pope Francis was canonically elected ...

In order to get around that one has to invent all kinds of baseless conspiracy theories for which there is no proof.

That says nothing about whether Pope Francis is "destroying" the Church or not, just that it's probably best to leave out the esoteric when there is no good reason to cite it, especially when it is probably spurious.

The argument that Pope Francis is harming the Church is well-established by very basic arguments, and does not require prophecy, revelations, visions or anything extraordinary.
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#14
(02-05-2018, 12:13 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(02-04-2018, 09:01 AM)maso Wrote:
(02-04-2018, 02:41 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: It really seems that Francis is trying to destroy the Church. If he is not evil himself, he certainly seems complicit in it because of all the things that unfaithful bishops and priests say and do without repercussions or even a response. Under Benedict XVI, the way of dealing with them seemed to be to simply wait them out, and replace them with good bishops. One problem, HE quit.  Another problem, HE and John Paul II appointed today’s bad bishops and cardinals. These aren’t leftovers from the early-mid 70’s. 

I’ve said before that one of John Paul II’s most serious faults was that that it was incredibly easy to suck up to him. Although to a much lesser degree, I think this was true of Benedict XVI as well. Francis makes people show their true colors, because his ideology is so different. If there isn’t a good enough pope in the near future who will put them all in their places, then at least those of us who are orthodox will know who to trust as faithful shepherds and who to regard as politicians who simply test the direction of the wind and run that way ahead of everyone else.
 
..."At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavor to draw many into error and death."
..."for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true pastor, but a destroyer.”

Read the the prophecy of Saint Francis of Assisi by Lucas Wadding in a 17th cent. book
"B.P. Francisci Assisiatis Opuscula" per Fr.Lucam Waddingum
The latin text of the prophecy is on pages 480-81-82:
"Prophetia XIV" : "Magnum in Ecclesia schisma et tribulationem futuram"
To download the original copy of this book:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=NHlMAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr#v=onepage&q=452&f=false

This prohpecy has been debunked as false.

As you find in the 1906 Edition of its translation (The Writings of Saint Francis of Assisi, newly translated into English with an Introduction and Notes by Father Paschal Robinson (Philadelphia: The Dolphin Press, 1906), the author writes in the Preface the following :

Quote:Wadding’s edition of the Opuscula differs mainly from all preceding collections in this, that whereas the latter contained only those pieces which as regards both matter and form were the handiwork of St. Francis, Wadding felt justified in including among St. Francis’ writings many dicta of the Saint found in the early Legends. …


Thus it comes to pass that in Wadding’s edition, side by side with the undisputed writings of St. Francis, we find doubtful, even spurious, extracts from different sources attributed to the Seraphic Father. It must ever remain a matter of regret that Wadding, instead of following the oldest MSS. that he had at hand, was content to transcribe the incomplete and often interpolated parts of them he found in second-hand compilations, like that of Mark of Lisbon. His work from our standpoint is vitiated by imperfect research and unreliable criticism.

This prophecy is one of those works uniquely found in this Opuscula and in no other work.

The more reliable Catholics "scholars" on the subject of prophecy, such as Desmond Birch and Emmett O’Reagan also have written that they believe this "prophecy" is not from St. Francis. It would make a great deal of sense that it is a false attribution from the Fraticelli, since they were keen to show the Popes that condemned them and supported the Franciscans as "destoyers".

A further problem for the application of this to the present : Pope Francis was canonically elected ...

In order to get around that one has to invent all kinds of baseless conspiracy theories for which there is no proof.

That says nothing about whether Pope Francis is "destroying" the Church or not, just that it's probably best to leave out the esoteric when there is no good reason to cite it, especially when it is probably spurious.

The argument that Pope Francis is harming the Church is well-established by very basic arguments, and does not require prophecy, revelations, visions or anything extraordinary.
Pax et Bonum!  I am a lay Franciscan/Penitent and have been hearing for the past few years, more about legend and comments St Francis of Assisi did not say - so what I decided to do, is stay with reading from Br Thomas of Celano, St Bonaventure or anyone very close to St Francis who was actually with him.  I think there is enough in these early documents and writings to keep one on a good Franciscan kind of path.  I do agree that we have to focus more on what P Francis is actually saying and doing than saying the Prophecy said it, so it has to be the proof - I find the Prophecies very interesting and many of them by a variety of old Saints and laity are coming to pass.  P Francis is being watched very closely for serious error - enough to get  him out.  In the meantime, pray and guard your soul!  angeltime
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#15
(02-04-2018, 04:58 PM)Magdalene Wrote: I think of him as 'the destroyer'.  And so are his minions.  They are not of Christ.

Definitely not. Christ does not sow seeds of doubt and confusion.
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#16
(02-03-2018, 11:53 PM)AllSeasons Wrote: I can't help but feel that way based on the things that have been happening since the start of his pontificate.  By their fruits thou shall know them, right?  The fruits so far have been pretty bad apples, and the disease is spreading.

I may need to go to Confession for thinking this, but I also cannot shake the feeling that Francis may turn out to be the antichrist - not just an antipope, but really possessed by the Devil.  That would mean we're truly in the end times.  Am I the only one thinking this?  It's probably crazy, but I keep coming to that conclusion in my head, which is very scary.

"Destroy" is not the right word for His Holiness's actions, but more like "scatter" or "confound."  To be honest, many traditional clergymen are at odds as well with His Holiness's heterodoxy.  In any case, prayer for his conversion is necessary, as the man is clearly intent on confounding the hierarchical organization of the Church, the celibate discipline of the clergy, etc., as well as the reputation of the Chair of St. Peter for wisdom and orthodoxy.  We're not yet at the level of "destructive" papacies.


God allowed and is allowing Pope Francis to reign over the Church, but probably to the ends of His Justice, as it seems he is making it easier for true Catholics to congregate (out of discontent) and false ones to fall away (out of apathy).  PF is driving a wedge between orthodox Catholics and heterodox ones.
"O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.

O my God, I shall cry by day, and thou wilt not hear: and by night, and it shall not be reputed as folly in me." Psalm 21
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#17
(02-04-2018, 05:27 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I have no doubt that he is trying to destroy the Church, and every day, in my Morning Offering and in my Rosary intentions, I pray for his return to the Catholic Faith.

In the morning offering, I always substitute "for the intentions of His Holiness the Pope" with "for the conversion of His Holiness the Pope."  I don't trust his intentions.
"O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.

O my God, I shall cry by day, and thou wilt not hear: and by night, and it shall not be reputed as folly in me." Psalm 21
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