I wish more Dioceses were!
#11
Has anyone ever heard a coherent argument that the Novus Ordo is superior? I’ve only ever heard “there’s nothing wrong with it” and “you’re a radical traditionalist schismatic” used to support it. I’ve never encountered anyone who can give me a reasoned and convincing explanation for why it is a truer expression of the Catholic Faith.
"I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ — though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory." -J.R.R. Tolkien

"I know quite well that, to you as to me, the Church which once felt like a refuge, now often feels like a trap. There is nowhere else to go! (I wonder if this desperate feeling, the last state of loyally hanging on, was not, even more often than is actually recorded in the Gospels, felt by Our Lord’s followers in His earthly life-time?) I think there is nothing to do but pray, for the Church, the Vicar of Christ, and for ourselves; and meanwhile to exercise the virtue of loyalty, which indeed only becomes a virtue when one is under pressure to desert it." -J.R.R. Tolkien

"There is none so blind as he who will not agree with me." -someone else
[-] The following 2 users Like Optatus Cleary's post:
  • Galahad3, GangGreen
Reply
#12
(02-27-2018, 09:42 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: Has anyone ever heard a coherent argument that the Novus Ordo is superior? I’ve only ever heard “there’s nothing wrong with it” and “you’re a radical traditionalist schismatic” used to support it. I’ve never encountered anyone who can give me a reasoned and convincing explanation for why it is a truer expression of the Catholic Faith.

Inclusivity mumble mumble unity mumble participation mumble mumble solidarity mumble social justice mumble accessibility mumble dewfall mumble mumble equality mumble mumble updated mumble mumble symbolic meal mumble.

Also guitars.  :metal:
[-] The following 1 user Likes Galahad3's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
#13
(02-27-2018, 07:29 AM)BobR67 Wrote: This has brought up a thought I had. Would all of these protestant converts we have, especally the ones on the radio and TV. Would they have converted if Vatican II never happend? I have felt that the answer is probably not.

You're thinking this backwards. The Church was getting thronged with converts in the 1950s'; that dried up after the Council. Anecdotally, I hear all the time from converts who "went Trad" after converting and wondering what the Hell nonsense they'd converted to. I've heard things like "Why didn't I just stay Lutheran if this is all there is?" many times.
T h e   D u d e t t e   A b i d e s
Reply
#14
(02-27-2018, 10:17 PM)Galahad3 Wrote:
(02-27-2018, 09:42 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: Has anyone ever heard a coherent argument that the Novus Ordo is superior? I’ve only ever heard “there’s nothing wrong with it” and “you’re a radical traditionalist schismatic” used to support it. I’ve never encountered anyone who can give me a reasoned and convincing explanation for why it is a truer expression of the Catholic Faith.

Inclusivity mumble mumble unity mumble participation mumble mumble solidarity mumble social justice mumble accessibility mumble dewfall mumble mumble equality mumble mumble updated mumble mumble symbolic meal mumble.

Also guitars.  :metal:

You forgot liturgical dance, tambourines, and the electric bass.  My family and I went to a parish like that last year while on vacation because it was close to where we were staying.   Never again.  We walked out and my oldest boy says, "Dad, was that even Catholic?"

For the record, I love the bass, but not in Mass.

-sent by howitzer via the breech.

God's love is manifest in the landscape as in a face.  - John Muir

I want creation to penetrate you with so much admiration that wherever you go, the least plant may bring you clear remembrance of the Creator.  A single plant, a blade of grass, or one speck of dust is sufficient to occupy all your intelligence in beholding the art with which it has been made  - Saint Basil

Heaven is under our feet, as well as over our heads. - Thoreau, Walden
[-] The following 1 user Likes Jeeter's post:
  • Galahad3
Reply
#15
(02-27-2018, 09:42 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: Has anyone ever heard a coherent argument that the Novus Ordo is superior? I’ve only ever heard “there’s nothing wrong with it” and “you’re a radical traditionalist schismatic” used to support it. I’ve never encountered anyone who can give me a reasoned and convincing explanation for why it is a truer expression of the Catholic Faith.

It all comes down to feelings. 

"I like that the Mass is in the language I understand" is the main one. Maybe if you get full blown lib Catholics you'll get the other stuff about modern music and whatever. The participation thing is a non-issue if you actually spend the time to learn the responses. One can easily say the prayers quietly along with the servers. One can easily sing along with the choir when they sing the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sursum Corda, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Ite Missa Est/Deo Gratias (unless the choir does a polyphonic setting). So if you take all of that into account there's just as much participation if not more in the old Mass if you just try to learn a little Latin. Add in the fact that the music isn't grating and there is more silence, so a person can spend Mass in silent mental prayer/contemplation (a higher form of prayer than verbal prayer) which is almost impossible in the New Mass (which according to the New Mass supporters is not "participation").
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
[-] The following 1 user Likes GangGreen's post:
  • Galahad3
Reply
#16
Speaking of silence and participation. Last Sunday I went to my local parish for Mass. I sat in my usual spot, the last pew. Usually the same people sit around me. But this time this lady sat in front of me and was texting almost during the whole mass. She would actually put her phone down and then it would vibrate and she would pick it up and text again. I gave her the look of disgust but it didn't help. I thought my head was going to explode.The family with little kids that sit next to me every week are less distracting. (It's great to watch the kids grow up.)

Also I kneel and pray after mass. I'm hoping people will catch on to the idea that the sound of silence is appropriate before and after mass. 

I am praying for a TLM to come to somewhere close to our town. I do attend a Byzantine Catholic Church twice a month. It is so much more reverent. I just wish it wasn't an hour away.
Bob

If my dog doesn't like you maybe I shouldn't either!!

“No one in the world can change Truth!”
St. Maximilian Kolbe, PRAY FOR US!
Reply
#17
With regard to why your average pew-sitter might prefer the NO or think it's better, I've only seen mentioned the vernacular, priest facing the people, and a few lay people and girls being able to do some more stuff.  I get the impression that most people aren't all that aware of the actual textual changes--even the people who lived both...

The academics usually make arguments concerning the history of certain texts and their placement not making sense, etc. (e.g. how the offertory prayer came about and how the text doesn't make sense prior to the consecration; the mysterium fidei was a originally a declaration by the deacon and therefore doesn't make sense inserted into the words of consecration, etc.). Then there were practical reasons given, like one of the reasons given for other Eucharistic prayers was that the Roman Canon was cumbersome to say aloud.  

There's long books written by those who worked on the reform that give all sorts of reasons. Honestly, I find their reasons mostly esoteric (more than one prelate at the time criticized the fact those who worked on the reform were ivory tower academics with little pastoral experience if any) and to be far outweighed by the considerations for keeping things as they were.
[Image: catherinesiena-1.jpg]
Reply
#18
(02-27-2018, 01:03 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(02-26-2018, 08:06 PM)Galahad3 Wrote: Genuinely not sure if that's a joke or not.
I think it's irony (where is Doc Bombay when you need him! :LOL:), pointing out that schism was not caused by the previous Papacy.

For auld lang syne, friend...
.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
Reply
#19
(02-27-2018, 09:42 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: Has anyone ever heard a coherent argument that the Novus Ordo is superior? I’ve only ever heard “there’s nothing wrong with it” and “you’re a radical traditionalist schismatic” used to support it. I’ve never encountered anyone who can give me a reasoned and convincing explanation for why it is a truer expression of the Catholic Faith.

It's not, so no. So why do they go to the NO? Let me answer my rhetorical question...Either they're very lazy, liberal (aka diabolical disorientation), or they don't know the Latin Mass still exists (that was me 15 something years ago). Or, or.... it's the only thing going in their area.

Edit, edit: Fr. George Rutler, if you by some crazy chance are reading this, I don't mean you!!!!
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
Reply
#20
(02-28-2018, 01:19 PM)Jacafamala Wrote:
(02-27-2018, 01:03 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(02-26-2018, 08:06 PM)Galahad3 Wrote: Genuinely not sure if that's a joke or not.
I think it's irony (where is Doc Bombay when you need him! :LOL:), pointing out that schism was not caused by the previous Papacy.

For auld lang syne, friend...

Thanks! :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
[-] The following 1 user Likes jovan66102's post:
  • JacafamalaRedux
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)