scripture contradicts other scriptures?
#1
we are told in the Word not to repeat prayers bc God knows what we need

but then there are the parables Jesus told, the one about the widow who kept pestering the judge until he gave her what she asked for (the judge being an analogy of God)

and Thessalonians tells us to pray incessantly, which i assume includes prayers of petition.

I think we are only supposed to not repeat the same requests, with the thought that by doing so, we will get w hat we ask for... ?
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#2
(02-27-2018, 06:53 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: we are told in the Word not to repeat prayers bc God knows what we need

but then there are the parables Jesus told, the one about the widow who kept pestering the judge until he gave her what she asked for (the judge being an analogy of God)

and Thessalonians tells us to pray incessantly, which i assume includes prayers of petition.

I think we are only supposed to not repeat the same requests, with the thought that by doing so, we will get w hat we ask for... ?

Protestants translated Mt 6.7 intentionally to take a swipe at Litanies, etc.

If you're not using a Protestant translation, then there is no problem :

Mt 6.7 in the Vulgate reads : Orantes autem, nolite multum loqui, sicut ethnici, putant enim quod in multiloquio suo exaudiantur. ("When you pray, do not speak much, as do the pagans, who consider that in their loquaciousness  they shall be heard.")

1 Thes. 5.17 in the Vulgate reads : Sine intermissione orate. ("Pray without ceasing.")

The only contradiction is when one mistakes prayer for saying words. Vocal prayer is one form of prayer (the lowest), but there are many others.

Prayer, correctly defined, is the lifting up of the mind and heart to God. Such does not require verbal expression, but often verbal expression is useful to express the inner disposition and to dispose the soul as well. 

Christ is condemning the pagan practice of incessantly repeating the various names of the false gods under the impression that the gods would reward them and answer their prayers only when they correctly invoked them. In a sense this was superstition—I need to keep naming the god by his different titles until he hears one he likes and then grants my request. Whereas the Christian idea is that we continually ask God for what we need to show our dependence, not in order to hit on the name, turn of phase or other word that pleases him.

God does not want nor need our intelligent turn of phrase or the perfect formula of words, "a heart that is humbled and contrite Thou, O God, wilt never disdain." (Ps 50.19b)

So St. Paul's advice is not to seek out the "right words" thinking some magical incantation will work, but to always have our mind and heart lifted up to our God.
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#3
(02-27-2018, 08:35 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(02-27-2018, 06:53 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: we are told in the Word not to repeat prayers bc God knows what we need

but then there are the parables Jesus told, the one about the widow who kept pestering the judge until he gave her what she asked for (the judge being an analogy of God)

and Thessalonians tells us to pray incessantly, which i assume includes prayers of petition.

I think we are only supposed to not repeat the same requests, with the thought that by doing so, we will get w hat we ask for... ?

Protestants translated Mt 6.7 intentionally to take a swipe at Litanies, etc.

If you're not using a Protestant translation, then there is no problem :

Mt 6.7 in the Vulgate reads : Orantes autem, nolite multum loqui, sicut ethnici, putant enim quod in multiloquio suo exaudiantur. ("When you pray, do not speak much, as do the pagans, who consider that in their loquaciousness  they shall be heard.")

1 Thes. 5.17 in the Vulgate reads : Sine intermissione orate. ("Pray without ceasing.")

The only contradiction is when one mistakes prayer for saying words. Vocal prayer is one form of prayer (the lowest), but there are many others.

Prayer, correctly defined, is the lifting up of the mind and heart to God. Such does not require verbal expression, but often verbal expression is useful to express the inner disposition and to dispose the soul as well. 

Christ is condemning the pagan practice of incessantly repeating the various names of the false gods under the impression that the gods would reward them and answer their prayers only when they correctly invoked them. In a sense this was superstition—I need to keep naming the god by his different titles until he hears one he likes and then grants my request. Whereas the Christian idea is that we continually ask God for what we need to show our dependence, not in order to hit on the name, turn of phase or other word that pleases him.

God does not want nor need our intelligent turn of phrase or the perfect formula of words, "a heart that is humbled and contrite Thou, O God, wilt never disdain." (Ps 50.19b)

So St. Paul's advice is not to seek out the "right words" thinking some magical incantation will work, but to always have our mind and heart lifted up to our God.

I never realized how deliberately scummy the KJV translation of this passage was.  I always want to give the KJV its due as an important literary milestone in the English language (probably the most important).  And I like the RSV-2CE quite a bit.  But this puts a very bad taste in my mouth.
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#4
(02-27-2018, 10:50 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(02-27-2018, 08:35 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(02-27-2018, 06:53 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: we are told in the Word not to repeat prayers bc God knows what we need

but then there are the parables Jesus told, the one about the widow who kept pestering the judge until he gave her what she asked for (the judge being an analogy of God)

and Thessalonians tells us to pray incessantly, which i assume includes prayers of petition.

I think we are only supposed to not repeat the same requests, with the thought that by doing so, we will get w hat we ask for... ?

Protestants translated Mt 6.7 intentionally to take a swipe at Litanies, etc.

If you're not using a Protestant translation, then there is no problem :

Mt 6.7 in the Vulgate reads : Orantes autem, nolite multum loqui, sicut ethnici, putant enim quod in multiloquio suo exaudiantur. ("When you pray, do not speak much, as do the pagans, who consider that in their loquaciousness  they shall be heard.")

1 Thes. 5.17 in the Vulgate reads : Sine intermissione orate. ("Pray without ceasing.")

The only contradiction is when one mistakes prayer for saying words. Vocal prayer is one form of prayer (the lowest), but there are many others.

Prayer, correctly defined, is the lifting up of the mind and heart to God. Such does not require verbal expression, but often verbal expression is useful to express the inner disposition and to dispose the soul as well. 

Christ is condemning the pagan practice of incessantly repeating the various names of the false gods under the impression that the gods would reward them and answer their prayers only when they correctly invoked them. In a sense this was superstition—I need to keep naming the god by his different titles until he hears one he likes and then grants my request. Whereas the Christian idea is that we continually ask God for what we need to show our dependence, not in order to hit on the name, turn of phase or other word that pleases him.

God does not want nor need our intelligent turn of phrase or the perfect formula of words, "a heart that is humbled and contrite Thou, O God, wilt never disdain." (Ps 50.19b)

So St. Paul's advice is not to seek out the "right words" thinking some magical incantation will work, but to always have our mind and heart lifted up to our God.

I never realized how deliberately scummy the KJV translation of this passage was.  I always want to give the KJV its due as an important literary milestone in the English language (probably the most important).  And I like the RSV-2CE quite a bit.  But this puts a very bad taste in my mouth.

The Catholic notion of Litanies is that by repeating the various titles for a Saint, or the attributes of the Sacred Heart or Precious Blood, for instance, it is not some magical formula by which we are trying to hit on just that right expression, but a reminder to us of the depth of the virtues of this person, or of the depth of the mystery behind this object of devotion.

It's a very different notion than the pagan idea, but Protestants were looking to take aim at Catholic devotions and make things like the veneration of Saints and relics and litanies, etc. appear to be an import from paganism, and thus idolatry.

If you understand this bias and desire, certain mistranslations in Protestant versions of scripture (especially the earlier ones) make total sense, and are, quite simply, a form of blasphemy, as rarely are they even a possible variant reading of the Greek or Latin from which they claim to be.
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#5
(02-27-2018, 10:50 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(02-27-2018, 08:35 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(02-27-2018, 06:53 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: we are told in the Word not to repeat prayers bc God knows what we need

but then there are the parables Jesus told, the one about the widow who kept pestering the judge until he gave her what she asked for (the judge being an analogy of God)

and Thessalonians tells us to pray incessantly, which i assume includes prayers of petition.

I think we are only supposed to not repeat the same requests, with the thought that by doing so, we will get w hat we ask for... ?

Protestants translated Mt 6.7 intentionally to take a swipe at Litanies, etc.

If you're not using a Protestant translation, then there is no problem :

Mt 6.7 in the Vulgate reads : Orantes autem, nolite multum loqui, sicut ethnici, putant enim quod in multiloquio suo exaudiantur. ("When you pray, do not speak much, as do the pagans, who consider that in their loquaciousness  they shall be heard.")

1 Thes. 5.17 in the Vulgate reads : Sine intermissione orate. ("Pray without ceasing.")

The only contradiction is when one mistakes prayer for saying words. Vocal prayer is one form of prayer (the lowest), but there are many others.

Prayer, correctly defined, is the lifting up of the mind and heart to God. Such does not require verbal expression, but often verbal expression is useful to express the inner disposition and to dispose the soul as well. 

Christ is condemning the pagan practice of incessantly repeating the various names of the false gods under the impression that the gods would reward them and answer their prayers only when they correctly invoked them. In a sense this was superstition—I need to keep naming the god by his different titles until he hears one he likes and then grants my request. Whereas the Christian idea is that we continually ask God for what we need to show our dependence, not in order to hit on the name, turn of phase or other word that pleases him.

God does not want nor need our intelligent turn of phrase or the perfect formula of words, "a heart that is humbled and contrite Thou, O God, wilt never disdain." (Ps 50.19b)

So St. Paul's advice is not to seek out the "right words" thinking some magical incantation will work, but to always have our mind and heart lifted up to our God.

I never realized how deliberately scummy the KJV translation of this passage was.  I always want to give the KJV its due as an important literary milestone in the English language (probably the most important).  And I like the RSV-2CE quite a bit.  But this puts a very bad taste in my mouth.

I'm not sure how much history that you know but I would never say that you should give the KJV it due, especially as a milestone because it is a bible mutilated by Martin Luther and commissioned by King Henry VIII who murdered St. Thomas More!  Collectively, they are responsible for the lose of countless souls do to the outrageous reformation [apostasy] of that time.

The [KJV] bible could be used as a reference for certain reasons, especially to refute protestants.  In fact, their bible can be used to prove the Papacy, among many things.

The bible to use is the Douay-Rheims bible, which is declared dogma in Session IV, at the Council of Trent.
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#6
Without a doubt, the bible cannot contradict itself.  Those who think so, that by itself, is evidence that they don't understand scripture.

2 Peter 3:15-17 … as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.  You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

For those who really want to gain knowledge, wisdom and understanding, say the Rosary everyday.

Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25  I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.  [John 14:6]

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope 

Ecclesiasticus 6:33-34  My son, if thou wilt attend to me, thou shalt learn: and if thou wilt apply thy mind, thou shalt be wise.  If thou wilt incline thy ear, thou shalt receive instruction 
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#7
MagisterMusicae is correct on Matt 6:7 – the "vain repetitions" Protestants make so much about are not repetitions in prayer, else even Psalm 135 (136) would fail the test. The pagans in and around the Holy Land in those days used magical incantations that involved almost interminable repetitions of words, nonsensical syllables, and just vowel sounds – thousands and thousands of times. This is what the Lord had in mind. The Greek word means something like "stammer-speaking"; the idea being that the nonsense repetition of syllables sounds like stuttering. The Syriac/Aramaic word used to translate the Greek means either "to stammer" or "to prate; to utter nonsense."
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
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#8
(02-27-2018, 08:35 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(02-27-2018, 06:53 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: we are told in the Word not to repeat prayers bc God knows what we need

but then there are the parables Jesus told, the one about the widow who kept pestering the judge until he gave her what she asked for (the judge being an analogy of God)

and Thessalonians tells us to pray incessantly, which i assume includes prayers of petition.

I think we are only supposed to not repeat the same requests, with the thought that by doing so, we will get w hat we ask for... ?

Protestants translated Mt 6.7 intentionally to take a swipe at Litanies, etc.

If you're not using a Protestant translation, then there is no problem :

Mt 6.7 in the Vulgate reads : Orantes autem, nolite multum loqui, sicut ethnici, putant enim quod in multiloquio suo exaudiantur. ("When you pray, do not speak much, as do the pagans, who consider that in their loquaciousness  they shall be heard.")

1 Thes. 5.17 in the Vulgate reads : Sine intermissione orate. ("Pray without ceasing.")

The only contradiction is when one mistakes prayer for saying words. Vocal prayer is one form of prayer (the lowest), but there are many others.

Prayer, correctly defined, is the lifting up of the mind and heart to God. Such does not require verbal expression, but often verbal expression is useful to express the inner disposition and to dispose the soul as well. 

Christ is condemning the pagan practice of incessantly repeating the various names of the false gods under the impression that the gods would reward them and answer their prayers only when they correctly invoked them. In a sense this was superstition—I need to keep naming the god by his different titles until he hears one he likes and then grants my request. Whereas the Christian idea is that we continually ask God for what we need to show our dependence, not in order to hit on the name, turn of phase or other word that pleases him.

God does not want nor need our intelligent turn of phrase or the perfect formula of words, "a heart that is humbled and contrite Thou, O God, wilt never disdain." (Ps 50.19b)

So St. Paul's advice is not to seek out the "right words" thinking some magical incantation will work, but to always have our mind and heart lifted up to our God.

that was very helpful. I didn't know what i was referring to was a Protestant interpretation. I have a Douay Rheims Bible and I don't know how it is worded  there, but for much of my young years, i did use non-Catholic Bibles, thinking maybe there wasn't much difference. I have since been disabused of that notion, but didn't know about what you write here. so Thanks..

Do you ever get the t hought that god is tired of you asking for such and such? I LOL at myself at that thought but i have it sometimes.. i
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#9
Quote:I'm not sure how much history that you know but I would never say that you should give the KJV it due, especially as a milestone because it is a bible mutilated by Martin Luther and commissioned by King Henry VIII who murdered St. Thomas More!  Collectively, they are responsible for the lose of countless souls do to the outrageous reformation [apostasy] of that time.

The [KJV] bible could be used as a reference for certain reasons, especially to refute protestants.  In fact, their bible can be used to prove the Papacy, among many things.

The bible to use is the Douay-Rheims bible, which is declared dogma in Session IV, at the Council of Trent.

I am not sure Luther and King H VIII were that powerful. I mean, it is each person's responsibllity to get saved... Yes, they influenced a lot of p eople and led in the wrong direction but God doesn't send anyone to Hell... Oh, never mind... I can't speak for God vis a vis such things...
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#10
(03-14-2018, 05:12 PM)gracemary5 Wrote:
Quote:I'm not sure how much history that you know but I would never say that you should give the KJV it due, especially as a milestone because it is a bible mutilated by Martin Luther and commissioned by King Henry VIII who murdered St. Thomas More!  Collectively, they are responsible for the lose of countless souls do to the outrageous reformation [apostasy] of that time.

The [KJV] bible could be used as a reference for certain reasons, especially to refute protestants.  In fact, their bible can be used to prove the Papacy, among many things.

The bible to use is the Douay-Rheims bible, which is declared dogma in Session IV, at the Council of Trent.

I am not sure Luther and King H VIII were that powerful. I mean, it is each person's responsibllity to get saved... Yes, they influenced a lot of p eople and led in the wrong direction but God doesn't send anyone to Hell... Oh, never mind... I can't speak for God vis a vis such things...

Luke3 was banned, so replying is pretty pointless, but what he wrote is false and demonstrably so.

The Rheims version of the New Testament was completed in 1582 (19 years after the Council of Trent ended). The Douai version of the Old Testament was completed in 1610 (47 years after the Council of Trent ended). The Douay-Rheims bible is the combination of the two after this point.

The Council of Trent only defined the Canon and certain aspect of Inspiration and Inerrancy with regard to Scripture as well as declaring the Latin Vulgate as authentic, free of any substantial error, and to be used for matters doctrinal. It said nothing of the Douay-Rheims (and couldn't as it did not yet exist).

Also Henry VIII and Luther had nothing to do with the King James Bible. The name alone should show something about this. The KJV was written between 1604-1611 under the patronage of King James (the fourth successor of Henry VIII).

The closest we can get to Henry and Luther touching the KJV is that Luther rejected the Deuterocanon (7 books of the OT, plus parts of two others) thus the KJV following other Protestant scriptures also excludes these seven, and Henry VIII in 1535 authorized the Great Bible, a distant predecessor to the KJV, and broke the Anglican Church from Rome. Otherwise there's not much connection.

The problem with the KJV is more the Protestant theology which intentionally mistranslates portions to undermine Catholic doctrine. That's why it should be avoided.

As a literary form, it is also not as particularly wonderful as always made out to be, partially because it was composed by many different people and assembled. As a result some passages are wonderful English, others are just mediocre or even bad English. To treat it as monolithic is itself questionable.
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