Is donating to the Church immoral?
#11
I wouldn't give a penny to a N.O. parish unless it's to a fund to save an historic or particularly beautiful church building, and I wouldn't dream of paying Peter's Pence. The idea of giving money to pay off the costs of some Catholicism-hating priest's orgasms, or fund Bishops as they work to destroy our countries' borders, replace our populations, and keep liberals in office is sick. I'm not paying for jet fuel so Francis can board a plane and make a mockery of marriage, or wax ineloquent about judging people --- nope.

I suggest supporting the FSSP and SSPX directly, supporting trad "apostolates" (like FishEaters), and giving goods directly to those in need. Think of the trad families without a lot, or young men who need to pay off debts before they can enter a trad seminary, etc.
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#12
(03-03-2018, 10:19 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(03-03-2018, 01:46 AM)Dominicus Wrote: We are obligated to assist with the material needs of the Church. This does not necessarily need to be a donation to your parish but it must be something. To neglect to do this is a grave sin. In fact, it's part of the bare minimum requirements of being a catholic.

I find the fact that this is even a question to be "disgusting".

Well I find Catholic Charities and my family's parish direct affiliation with them disgusting, so your pearl clutching kinda falls on deaf ears. This kind of post isn't really going to shame me into endorsing programs that are frankly evil. 

I find your inability to recognize the nuances of this problem disgusting. Do you donate to your parish if portions go to support contraception programs? Is that being a good Catholic like Jesus wanted? Frankly I would withhold money strictly on the basis of a parish doing generally liberal crap that I dislike but thats not even where I'm approaching it from.

I know little about Catholic Charities, upon first reading your post I thought you meant just any Catholic charity. Even so I don't think that restating the Church's teachings counts as "pearl clutching". 

If I found that my parish was somehow supporting contraception then I would speak to the pastor about it, then the bishop and failing that find somewhere else to give my money. 

Have you considered that your family is simply ignorant of any wrong thing they may be indirectly supporting and are instead simply following the precepts as best as they know how? The way you wrote your post tells me otherwise.

This sounds more like pearl clutching to me. If they are ignorant or do not directly will that money they give is going toward evil then they have committed no sin. Perhaps speak with them again, this time calmly explaining why it's bad. Bring some literature as well. Leave out emotional words like "stupid" and "disgusting". Youll never win anybody over by being uncharitable.

Now this is just what im getting from your posts. If I misunderstood, I apologise.
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#13
Yeah  agree with Dominicus's sentiment.  I will state, this reaction to financial tithing screams awfully American, this obsession with "mon vote, votre vote, nous droites!" It insidiously reeks of not only Americanism, but that other foul creature Protestantism.

It's the indulgences crisis all over again, with people pointing to (yes) the very real problems in the Church and making blanket declarations that makes Martin Luther and the devil quite happy.  'We should never give to the Church because it goes to evil schemes.  It will just go to the fat, corpulent, wicked Borgia or Medici man on the Petrine throne.  It will just go to fund another glorious structure in Rome while the poor German peasants starve.'

Not every dollar that goes into the Offertory goes to abortions, condoms, or pedo-legal fees.  The parish (no matter how wicked) still needs to pay to keep the lights on and there are many parishes that you can specify exactly where your cheque goes to.  I do not donate to the Bishops Annual appeal, but I do try to give some cash everytime I go to Mass.  'Why?  It's a NO-parish!' you chagrin...because I know the priests and the people, and they are good-natured people.  Perhaps some of that money does go to evil schemes, but it is not because they are actively aware of it, for if they were, they would stop.

These broad-brushes I see being painting with the jolliness of a Donatist or Jansenist is just revolting to me. It vexes me, it angers me.  This false zeal, this pride of stinginess.  Why celebrate the man who gleefully withholds the fruits of his labor, and resent the man who simply just fulfills his simple duty, simply.  

If you are in a parish that is that truly wicked, that it is Sodom and Gomorrah and there is not one soul worth sparring chastisement get out! Get Out! GET OUT!!!  and go to a parish that is not like these impish iniquity-dens we ludicrously concoct in our minds.
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#14
(03-03-2018, 12:39 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Yeah  agree with Dominicus's sentiment.  I will state, this reaction to financial tithing screams awfully American, this obsession with "mon vote, votre vote, nous droites!" It insidiously reeks of not only Americanism, but that other foul creature Protestantism.

It's "Americanism" or "Protestantism" to not want to financially support evil? How?

Quote:It's the indulgences crisis all over again, with people pointing to (yes) the very real problems in the Church and making blanket declarations that makes Martin Luther and the devil quite happy.  'We should never give to the Church because it goes to evil schemes.  It will just go to the fat, corpulent, wicked Borgia or Medici man on the Petrine throne.  It will just go to fund another glorious structure in Rome while the poor German peasants starve.'
 
They'd have been right in not sending money to the Borgias, instead giving it to the poor and to faithful parishes.

Quote:Not every dollar that goes into the Offertory goes to abortions, condoms, or pedo-legal fees.  The parish (no matter how wicked) still needs to pay to keep the lights on and there are many parishes that you can specify exactly where your cheque goes to.  I do not donate to the Bishops Annual appeal, but I do try to give some cash everytime I go to Mass.  'Why?  It's a NO-parish!' you chagrin...because I know the priests and the people, and they are good-natured people.  Perhaps some of that money does go to evil schemes, but it is not because they are actively aware of it, for if they were, they would stop.

These broad-brushes I see being painting with the jolliness of a Donatist or Jansenist is just revolting to me. It vexes me, it angers me.  This false zeal, this pride of stinginess.  Why celebrate the man who gleefully withholds the fruits of his labor, and resent the man who simply just fulfills his simple duty, simply.  

How is it "stinginess" to give $X to Entity Y rather than to Entity Z? Makes no sense.

Quote:If you are in a parish that is that truly wicked, that it is Sodom and Gomorrah and there is not one soul worth sparring chastisement get out! Get Out! GET OUT!!!  and go to a parish that is not like these impish iniquity-dens we ludicrously concoct in our minds.

Exactly. GET OUT and attend and fund trad parishes, chapels, and apostolates. That's what I said.
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#15
(03-03-2018, 12:59 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote:
(03-03-2018, 12:39 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Yeah  agree with Dominicus's sentiment.  I will state, this reaction to financial tithing screams awfully American, this obsession with "mon vote, votre vote, nous droites!" It insidiously reeks of not only Americanism, but that other foul creature Protestantism.

It's "Americanism" or "Protestantism" to not want to financially support evil? How?

No, and that's not what I am saying.  I'm saying this attitude in regards to Offerings has a spirit of those heresies.


Quote:
Quote:It's the indulgences crisis all over again, with people pointing to (yes) the very real problems in the Church and making blanket declarations that makes Martin Luther and the devil quite happy.  'We should never give to the Church because it goes to evil schemes.  It will just go to the fat, corpulent, wicked Borgia or Medici man on the Petrine throne.  It will just go to fund another glorious structure in Rome while the poor German peasants starve.'
 
They'd have been right in not sending money to the Borgias, instead giving it to the poor and to faithful parishes.

Except that's what helped cause the Protestant Revolt.

Quote:
Quote:Not every dollar that goes into the Offertory goes to abortions, condoms, or pedo-legal fees.  The parish (no matter how wicked) still needs to pay to keep the lights on and there are many parishes that you can specify exactly where your cheque goes to.  I do not donate to the Bishops Annual appeal, but I do try to give some cash everytime I go to Mass.  'Why?  It's a NO-parish!' you chagrin...because I know the priests and the people, and they are good-natured people.  Perhaps some of that money does go to evil schemes, but it is not because they are actively aware of it, for if they were, they would stop.

These broad-brushes I see being painting with the jolliness of a Donatist or Jansenist is just revolting to me. It vexes me, it angers me.  This false zeal, this pride of stinginess.  Why celebrate the man who gleefully withholds the fruits of his labor, and resent the man who simply just fulfills his simple duty, simply.  

How is it "stinginess" to give $X to Entity Y rather than to Entity Z? Makes no sense.

It is not, if that's what you are saying, but I've read elsewhere and there is a sentiment that all NO-parishes are evil and should not receive a pittance.  That it is much greater to just withhold money than risk giving to those whom we trust, who use it for nefarious purposes.

I am disturbed by this praising of doing no evil, as opposed to good works.  The OP is disgusted that his family donates to their parish, is the parish that entirely evil and are their parents evil for doing what they are obliged to which is support the Church.  It's one thing to argue against giving to this specific thing or that, but I'm not hearing specifics from the OP, I'm hearing generals.  That is what disturbs me.

Do the people on here who are so strident to withhold financial support to the Church on the basis of doing no evil, are equally dogmatic in regards to taxation, which does actively promote and do evil?

I don't see people calling for tax strikes, but they are equally happy to do it to the Church.  It's a hypocrisy for one to congratulate themselves by being stingy and refusing the Holy Church money where evil may be committed with it, but then turn around and willing give money to the secular state.

Quote:
Quote:If you are in a parish that is that truly wicked, that it is Sodom and Gomorrah and there is not one soul worth sparring chastisement get out! Get Out! GET OUT!!!  and go to a parish that is not like these impish iniquity-dens we ludicrously concoct in our minds.

Exactly. GET OUT and attend and fund trad parishes, chapels, and apostolates. That's what I said.

Yeah we agree; my post wasn't directed at you.  I wasn't trying to critique you, but make my general statement.
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#16
Quote:Except that's what helped cause the Protestant Revolt..

Withholding money didn't cause the revolt; bad thinking, bad theology, and the desire to do things forbidden by the Church did.

Quote:It is not, if that's what you are saying, but I've read elsewhere and there is a sentiment that all NO-parishes are evil and should not receive a pittance.  That it is much greater to just withhold money than risk giving to those whom we trust, who use it for nefarious purposes.

I am disturbed by this praising of doing no evil, as opposed to good works.  The OP is disgusted that his family donates to their parish, is the parish that entirely evil and are their parents evil for doing what they are obliged to which is support the Church.  It's one thing to argue against giving to this specific thing or that, but I'm not hearing specifics from the OP, I'm hearing generals.  That is what disturbs me.
 
Aren't we supposed to be doing no evil AND doing good works?

I doubt anyone thinks his N.O. parish is "entirely evil", that every soul attending it is "evil" or some such. That isn't the point. The point is to starve the N.O. while feeding Tradition.
 
Quote:Do the people on here who are so strident to withhold financial support to the Church on the basis of doing no evil, are equally dogmatic in regards to taxation, which does actively promote and do evil?

The Church doesn't come after you with guns if you don't give money to the Fr. Martins of the world. Thank God.

Quote:I don't see people calling for tax strikes, but they are equally happy to do it to the Church.  It's a hypocrisy for one to congratulate themselves by being stingy and refusing the Holy Church money where evil may be committed with it, but then turn around and willing give money to the secular state.
 
It's not "stingy" to give to X area of the Church rather than to Y area of the Church, when X are of the Church is more pleasing to God, and Y area of the Church is distorting doctrine, perverting the liturgy, etc. And I don't think anyone is "congratulating" himself over anything in this thread; I think people just want to get on with the Restoration and stop funding the madness.
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#17
(03-02-2018, 11:10 PM)Fontevrault Wrote: Pilgrim and I donate to our parish in more tangible ways.  We once bought a set of St. Edmund Campion Missals for the TLM.  We do things that put the funds toward things that benefit the local TLM rather than just giving a check.   Other than that, we send money to traditional orders, the FSSP, and sometimes directly to families in need.
Peace.....for a long time now, I have been concerned that we Catholics should stop being so "global" and become more "local" in order to provide for parishes we attend, but also have transparency to our donations.  We have so many levels of governments in the hierarchy, as well as in religious orders and even lay groups.  Do you know that in a lay order I know of, there is the local fraternity, regional council, national council, international council, and then the levels in Rome incl superior general?  This is absurd!  (If one was to send an email to another in the higher levels, one would be fortunate to receive an answer or just be referred back to the beginning.)
While many are struggling to survive and pay bills and live a life of poverty, prayer and penance in these types of lay orders, the upper levels ask for more money from the dues to keep their paperwork going.....so if we stop to think how many organizations there are within the Church, each having these levels above and then the Vatican hierarchy - it is not the simple poor Church Christ founded - not in my opinion!  God bless angeltime :monstrance:
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#18
(03-03-2018, 05:00 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: Withholding money didn't cause the revolt; bad thinking, bad theology, and the desire to do things forbidden by the Church did.

Yes bad thinking and theology were at fault, but so was a growing hostility towards the Church.  How many Catholics were more than happy to shed the Faith and become heretics because they, like us, bore witness to numerous corruptions and scandals that plague the Church then as it does now.  The Western Schism no doubt had the same effect on future Catholics pre-Reformation as Vatican II does on Catholics today.

Catholics in Germany were told to deprive the Church of financial assistance and it was justified by saying that the Church was engaging in simony via the sale of Indulgences.  While true, it set in the motion the spirit that would cause the greatest chasm since Arianism.

Quote:Aren't we supposed to be doing no evil AND doing good works?

Yes, but that's not what I was arguing.  I'm hearing boasting of doing no evil, and nothing to replace it with.  I'm not hearing don't give to X if X is doing A, but give to Y that does do B.  You Vox, are saying that and I'm fine with it, but I'm also hearing just simply Don't give to XYZ and that's what I have an issue with.


Quote:I doubt anyone thinks his N.O. parish is "entirely evil", that every soul attending it is "evil" or some such. That isn't the point. The point is to starve the N.O. while feeding Tradition.
 
That's fine if you have a TLM in your area, but if you are like me.  By me refusing money to my parish I'm not "starving" the N.O.  I'm starving my priests and the parish where I go to Mass every Sunday and holiday.

Quote:The Church doesn't come after you with guns if you don't give money to the Fr. Martins of the world. Thank God.

Yeah, that's my point!  The Church is an easy target because it doesn't come after you with guns.  So because the Church doesn't punish you for being stingy, it's okay to fear and respect the government more than Holy Mother Church.  I don't think God would approve.

Quote:It's not "stingy" to give to X area of the Church rather than to Y area of the Church, when X are of the Church is more pleasing to God, and Y area of the Church is distorting doctrine, perverting the liturgy, etc. And I don't think anyone is "congratulating" himself over anything in this thread; I think people just want to get on with the Restoration and stop funding the madness.

I hear you saying that, but from certain areas I don't hear that.  There's another thread where people are straining to hold back utter contempt at the prospect of going to a Papal Mass.  I fear Vox that it is more than simply restoration and ending the madness...I fear there is a desire to revenge on the wicked men of the Church and punish them.  I fear there is a growing sentiment that people do not want to avoid doing evil, as much as they desire to punish those whom they deem as wicked.

Look you are not going to get an argument out of me for avoiding financially supporting Fr James Martin, but to lump every NO in with it and say "stop donating"...I have a problem with that.
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#19
(03-03-2018, 08:28 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(03-03-2018, 05:00 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: Withholding money didn't cause the revolt; bad thinking, bad theology, and the desire to do things forbidden by the Church did.

Yes bad thinking and theology were at fault, but so was a growing hostility towards the Church.  How many Catholics were more than happy to shed the Faith and become heretics because they, like us, bore witness to numerous corruptions and scandals that plague the Church then as it does now.  The Western Schism no doubt had the same effect on future Catholics pre-Reformation as Vatican II does on Catholics today.

Catholics in Germany were told to deprive the Church of financial assistance and it was justified by saying that the Church was engaging in simony via the sale of Indulgences.  While true, it set in the motion the spirit that would cause the greatest chasm since Arianism.

Quote:Aren't we supposed to be doing no evil AND doing good works?

Yes, but that's not what I was arguing.  I'm hearing boasting of doing no evil, and nothing to replace it with.  I'm not hearing don't give to X if X is doing A, but give to Y that does do B.  You Vox, are saying that and I'm fine with it, but I'm also hearing just simply Don't give to XYZ and that's what I have an issue with.


Quote:I doubt anyone thinks his N.O. parish is "entirely evil", that every soul attending it is "evil" or some such. That isn't the point. The point is to starve the N.O. while feeding Tradition.
 
That's fine if you have a TLM in your area, but if you are like me.  By me refusing money to my parish I'm not "starving" the N.O.  I'm starving my priests and the parish where I go to Mass every Sunday and holiday.

Quote:The Church doesn't come after you with guns if you don't give money to the Fr. Martins of the world. Thank God.

Yeah, that's my point!  The Church is an easy target because it doesn't come after you with guns.  So because the Church doesn't punish you for being stingy, it's okay to fear and respect the government more than Holy Mother Church.  I don't think God would approve.

Quote:It's not "stingy" to give to X area of the Church rather than to Y area of the Church, when X are of the Church is more pleasing to God, and Y area of the Church is distorting doctrine, perverting the liturgy, etc. And I don't think anyone is "congratulating" himself over anything in this thread; I think people just want to get on with the Restoration and stop funding the madness.

I hear you saying that, but from certain areas I don't hear that.  There's another thread where people are straining to hold back utter contempt at the prospect of going to a Papal Mass.  I fear Vox that it is more than simply restoration and ending the madness...I fear there is a desire to revenge on the wicked men of the Church and punish them.  I fear there is a growing sentiment that people do not want to avoid doing evil, as much as they desire to punish those whom they deem as wicked.

Look you are not going to get an argument out of me for avoiding financially supporting Fr James Martin, but to lump every NO in with it and say "stop donating"...I have a problem with that.
Peace.....I wonder if people are growing very tired of being frustrated and confused while trying to hold on to their patience for this to be resolved.  It may be more this, than being angry and wanting to punish - it just might be "I want it to stop already!"  I can understand that.  What people do with their hard-earned money is their business in terms of what and who they support - our parishes could probably be supported quite sufficiently, but there is the increasing wonder as to where the money is really going and what kind of a Bishop do we really have?  Let's face it, we have had some sudden surprises - not pleasant ones for the most part the past several years.  This is not an easy road and the devil would certainly like for us to bicker and separate more and more - but we must remember in the past there were Saints and Martyrs who offered themselves for the state of the Church and those in it.  God bless angeltime :heart:
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#20
(03-03-2018, 08:39 PM)angeltime Wrote: Peace.....I wonder if people are growing very tired of being frustrated and confused while trying to hold on to their patience for this to be resolved.  It may be more this, than being angry and wanting to punish - it just might be "I want it to stop already!"  I can understand that.  What people do with their hard-earned money is their business in terms of what and who they support - our parishes could probably be supported quite sufficiently, but there is the increasing wonder as to where the money is really going and what kind of a Bishop do we really have?  Let's face it, we have had some sudden surprises - not pleasant ones for the most part the past several years.  This is not an easy road and the devil would certainly like for us to bicker and separate more and more - but we must remember in the past there were Saints and Martyrs who offered themselves for the state of the Church and those in it.  God bless angeltime :heart:

God bless for that post and I can fully agree on that!  I don't donate to the Bishops Annual Appeal for that reason, but that's not to say I do not feel guilty or hurt.  I love reading the letter from my priest who makes his intentions of donating and it's frankly terrible that I refuse to join in.  This is what hurts, because of the crisis I just cannot join my priest as una vox, una populi, una Ecclesia.  Nevertheless I do offer financial support to my local parish and I hope others do as well.  As you said earlier we need to stop being "global" and more "local."
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