Question about the Little Office of the BVM readings
#1
Many of the little chapters come from Sirach and focus on the feminine Wisdom.  Is the implication that Wisdom should be read typologically as the Blessed Mother?  Is this a common connection that I've missed over the years?  It wouldn't surprise me, but I've never explicitly encountered this if that's the case.
Reply
#2
I've been saying the LOBVM for over 30 years and that has always been my interpretation.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


[-] The following 3 users Like jovan66102's post:
  • carmelschild, Imperator Caesar Trump, IntoTheMystic
Reply
#3
(03-03-2018, 04:53 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I've been saying the LOBVM for over 30 years and that has always been my interpretation.

You know, I had the chance to reflect on this topic again because I was playing around in the notes in the Haydock Study Bible.  One of the notes confirms your interpretation, but there's another that seems to be in conflict with it.  It's strange to me because Haydock seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Here is what he says in the Introduction:


Quote:Ver. 1.  Wisdom.  In this book, Wisdom is taken for the Deity, the Son, or the gift communicated to men.  Prov. iii. 19.  Wisd. vii. 25.  C.

Then here is what he says in Chapter 24:

Quote:Ver. 3.  And.  Gr. (5.) "I came out of the mouth of the Highest, (6.) and as," &c.  H. --- He alludes to the darkness which covered the earth.  Gen. i. 2.  Job xxxviii. 9.  Many explain this of the uncreated wisdom, born in the womb of the blessed Virgin; and the Church, in her office, applies it to her in a mystical sense.  But it seems literally to refer to the wisdom and grace granted to the saints, which enlightens every man, and presides over the creation.

So ?????

It seems like he is saying Wisdom refers to Jesus, Jesus in the womb of Mary, Mary, and then to literal wisdom/not anyone in particular.  Maybe I'm parsing the syntax of the commentary wrong.  I don't know.
Reply
#4
I have to be honest, and say I've never bothered much with the commentary on the capitulae in the LOBVM. I've just gone with my gut instinct and allegorical interpretation.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


Reply
#5
(03-08-2018, 03:04 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(03-03-2018, 04:53 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I've been saying the LOBVM for over 30 years and that has always been my interpretation.

You know, I had the chance to reflect on this topic again because I was playing around in the notes in the Haydock Study Bible.  One of the notes confirms your interpretation, but there's another that seems to be in conflict with it.  It's strange to me because Haydock seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Here is what he says in the Introduction:


Quote:Ver. 1.  Wisdom.  In this book, Wisdom is taken for the Deity, the Son, or the gift communicated to men.  Prov. iii. 19.  Wisd. vii. 25.  C.

Then here is what he says in Chapter 24:

Quote:Ver. 3.  And.  Gr. (5.) "I came out of the mouth of the Highest, (6.) and as," &c.  H. --- He alludes to the darkness which covered the earth.  Gen. i. 2.  Job xxxviii. 9.  Many explain this of the uncreated wisdom, born in the womb of the blessed Virgin; and the Church, in her office, applies it to her in a mystical sense.  But it seems literally to refer to the wisdom and grace granted to the saints, which enlightens every man, and presides over the creation.

So ?????

It seems like he is saying Wisdom refers to Jesus, Jesus in the womb of Mary, Mary, and then to literal wisdom/not anyone in particular.  Maybe I'm parsing the syntax of the commentary wrong.  I don't know.
Thats my understanding. 

In the literal sense it refers to the created gift of the Holy Ghost. In the Anagogical sense it refers to Wisdom Himself, Christ who is inseparable from His mother and exists throughout eternity and orders all things. In the allegorical sense it refers to Mary, the perfect example of wisdom and the seat of Wisdom chosen by God before time to be the culmination of His creation as well as His dwelling place. The moral sense seems rather obvious
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
Reply
#6
Hey Jovan, another question about the Little Office - Do you pray the Memento Rerum Conditor hymn every time it is repeated throughout the day?  The fact that it is used back to back throughout the "day" hours makes me think it's not meant to be repeated, but is there for people who are only praying one of the hours from Terce to I guess None.  

I don't object to repeating the hymn, I just find it odd that it is recycled like that....
Reply
#7
(03-08-2018, 08:20 PM)Dominicus Wrote:
(03-08-2018, 03:04 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(03-03-2018, 04:53 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I've been saying the LOBVM for over 30 years and that has always been my interpretation.

You know, I had the chance to reflect on this topic again because I was playing around in the notes in the Haydock Study Bible.  One of the notes confirms your interpretation, but there's another that seems to be in conflict with it.  It's strange to me because Haydock seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Here is what he says in the Introduction:


Quote:Ver. 1.  Wisdom.  In this book, Wisdom is taken for the Deity, the Son, or the gift communicated to men.  Prov. iii. 19.  Wisd. vii. 25.  C.

Then here is what he says in Chapter 24:

Quote:Ver. 3.  And.  Gr. (5.) "I came out of the mouth of the Highest, (6.) and as," &c.  H. --- He alludes to the darkness which covered the earth.  Gen. i. 2.  Job xxxviii. 9.  Many explain this of the uncreated wisdom, born in the womb of the blessed Virgin; and the Church, in her office, applies it to her in a mystical sense.  But it seems literally to refer to the wisdom and grace granted to the saints, which enlightens every man, and presides over the creation.

So ?????

It seems like he is saying Wisdom refers to Jesus, Jesus in the womb of Mary, Mary, and then to literal wisdom/not anyone in particular.  Maybe I'm parsing the syntax of the commentary wrong.  I don't know.
Thats my understanding. 

In the literal sense it refers to the created gift of the Holy Ghost. In the Anagogical sense it refers to Wisdom Himself, Christ who is inseparable from His mother and exists throughout eternity and orders all things. In the allegorical sense it refers to Mary, the perfect example of wisdom and the seat of Wisdom chosen by God before time to be the culmination of His creation as well as His dwelling place. The moral sense seems rather obvious

So essentially, Wisdom is "over-defined"?  I can see that.  I also think, as Jovan indicated initially, that the connection to Mary is a given in the context of the Little Office.
Reply
#8
Well I wouldn't say "overdefined". I take it you mean similarly to how "love" has 1000 different meanings. Rather it's just a result of how the scripture in question is interpreted. As Catholics we have to look at multiple senses of scripture, not just the literal.

Aside from the literal which is how the author intended it to be read there are also three spiritual senses. The alegorical which draws on types and figures, the moral which tells how the scripture relates to us, and the anagogical or eschatological sense which relates to eternity.

I would say these particular scriptures more perfectly relate to Mary as "wisdom" in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew is always feminine. It is referred to as the "mother of fair love..." etc.

In the litany of Loreto, Our Lady is referred to as "seat of Wisdom" because it is in her that the divine Wisdom, the Logos, made His home.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
Reply
#9
(03-09-2018, 03:55 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Hey Jovan, another question about the Little Office - Do you pray the Memento Rerum Conditor hymn every time it is repeated throughout the day?  The fact that it is used back to back throughout the "day" hours makes me think it's not meant to be repeated, but is there for people who are only praying one of the hours from Terce to I guess None.  

I don't object to repeating the hymn, I just find it odd that it is recycled like that....
Well, I use the 1953 edition of the Carmelite LOBVM, and it's pretty obvious that it is meant to be repeated at each of the Day Hours. So that's what I've always done. Every Hour has a hymn, and that happens to be the hymn for several Hours.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


Reply
#10
(03-09-2018, 04:37 PM)Dominicus Wrote: In the litany of Loreto, Our Lady is referred to as "seat of Wisdom" because it is in her that the divine Wisdom, the Logos, made His home.

In the Akathist, She is referred to as 'Sheepfold of rational sheep'. I love that title!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


[-] The following 1 user Likes jovan66102's post:
  • aquinas138
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)