To what past crisis in the Church is the current crisis most comparable?
#11
(03-04-2018, 05:05 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Good video: "All but five of the bishops and the Pope" endorsed this heresy.  That really does help contextualize the issues today.  I mean, it's pretty bad right now, but the fact that almost the entire hierarchy subscribed to the belief that Jesus was not God - that's a pretty big meatball.  I wasn't aware that the Arian heresy was THAT prevalent.  Very comforting to hear actually. 

I guess the next pertinent question for me is how the "dissident" laity behaved during these times.  If you were a parishioner and your bishop and priests preached Arianism, what would you do?  A lot of people on this forum subscribe to the "sit there with your hands over your ears to make it to the Eucharist if you have to" school of thought.  But what if the priest were saying Jesus wasn't God?

Quite simply that "all but five bishops and the Pope" is false. Only if you take the most generous meaning of "endorse" and then even take the highly doubtful cases and decide in favor of the Arians, and then forget that we don't have solid records for many of the bishops can you come up with anything that near-universal profession of heresy.

Simply put, no good historian would ever claim such a figure without making some kind of distinctions.

In truth while it was pretty bad, the reality was far more confusing than it was an absolute abandonment of the Faith. And in fact that make the parallels that much more strong. You had a variety of good bishops who accepted ambiguous formulæ and sought to have some "peace" at the expense of an explicit statement of the Faith, but who never actually professed the heresy.

To show the level of complication, there were at least 15 different local synods of bishops, most of which took one of eight different formulæ of Creeds as the basis for its doctrinal claims, producing nearly 20 slightly varied Creeds. Some of these were openly Arian; some, completely orthodox; others, ambiguous; others, favoring but not explicitly professing Arianism.

For instance it was alleged (if the letters are to be believed) that Pope Liberius accepted either the Creed of the First or Third Synod of Sirmium, but not the Creed of the Second Synod of Sirmium. The second creed was clearly Arian. The First and Third are dangerously ambiguous, but not heretical. Yet you will hear many people speak as if Pope Liberius abandoned the Faith, which has absolutely no support.

There are many parallels between the Arian Crisis and the Modernist Crisis, but to claim something as ridiculous as a remnant of "five bishops" who did not profess heresy is, by any reasonable historical standard patently false.
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#12
(03-04-2018, 07:44 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(03-04-2018, 07:30 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: Not worried? I am betting you don't have children, or else they're not very old yet....I haven't read Hilaire Belloc's "The Great Heresies", but Hilaire was living in better times than these and souls are falling (like snowflakes) into hell--right now!

Hilaire was living during a time where your kids would grow up to die disemboweled by a machine gun in the poppy fields of Flanders, or a mortar shell on the beaches of Normandy.  That's not to mention if your kids didn't already die of the Spanish Flu or polio.  He lived late in his life during a time where the world was beginning to ramp up nuclear weapons in preparation of complete utter annihilation.  He lived during a time where a pedophile could be a priest...and get away with it.  Souls were falling like snowflakes into Hell back then.

I apologize if I am snarky but once again I see the "Snowflake" argument.  "My generation is sooo special, my times are sooo much worse nobody ever has it as bad as me."  

No, I'm pretty sure if you read what was done to Catholics during a time as late as Elizabethan times, you will thank God that the only suffering you have to endure is that your sensibilities are offended.

I'm guessing you do have kids.  Well my dear, if you are doing your duty, and you are praying to God every night for your lovely little ones, and you are ensuring they are being formed strongly in the Faith...then imbibe that holy theological virtue we are all called to do Hope and rest easy, because God will take care of them and you.  If my mother, who was excommunicated at the time, could save my soul by mere prayers, no doubt will God do the same to whatever you ask for your children.

Oh, I see, my darling. I'm happy for you that you can say it's all relative. You're lucky.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#13
As far as what's being taught by Catholic clergy, the period we live in is the worst in the entire history of the Church.
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#14
(03-04-2018, 09:25 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: Oh, I see, my darling. I'm happy for you that you can say it's all relative. You're lucky.

It's not all relative, that's not my point. I'm saying as Catholics, we have it pretty good and I'm saying that is something to be thankful for.

I'm not lucky, I'm hopeful. And I am not a relativist.
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#15
(03-04-2018, 10:42 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(03-04-2018, 09:25 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: Oh, I see, my darling. I'm happy for you that you can say it's all relative. You're lucky.

It's not all relative, that's not my point.  I'm saying as Catholics, we have it pretty good and I'm saying that is something to be thankful for.  

I'm not lucky, I'm hopeful. And I am not a relativist.

Raising a family is extremely difficult in these times. More so than in times past, beyond anything in the past. I am hopeful too, but see what I"m up against. Sorry, I've just had a bad run of it.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#16
(03-04-2018, 10:52 PM)Jacafamala Wrote:
(03-04-2018, 10:42 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(03-04-2018, 09:25 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: Oh, I see, my darling. I'm happy for you that you can say it's all relative. You're lucky.

It's not all relative, that's not my point.  I'm saying as Catholics, we have it pretty good and I'm saying that is something to be thankful for.  

I'm not lucky, I'm hopeful. And I am not a relativist.

Raising a family is extremely difficult in these times. More so than in times past, beyond anything in the past. I am hopeful too, but see what I"m up against. Sorry, I've just had a bad run of it.

I'm sorry you are struggling. I will pray for your family.

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