looking for celibate spouse LOL
#11
(03-14-2018, 09:59 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: (Y)ou want to be celibate and married. 
You cannot be both! Check Fr Hardon's definition.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
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#12
i don't think
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#13
i don't think
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#14
(03-15-2018, 09:48 AM)Ptochos Wrote:
(03-15-2018, 02:43 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(03-14-2018, 09:59 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: (Y)ou want to be celibate and married. 
You cannot be both! Check Fr Hardon's definition.

My reading of this section of the Catechism of Trent indicates that consummation is not necessary. 

The Essence of Marriage Constituted by the Consent

Hence pastors should teach the faithful that the nature and force of marriage consists in the tie and obligation; and that, without consummation, the consent of the parties, expressed in the manner already explained, is sufficient to constitute a true marriage. It is certain that our first parents before their fall, when, according to the holy Fathers, no consummation took place, were really united in marriage. Hence the Fathers say that marriage consists not in its use but in the consent. This doctrine is repeated by St. Ambrose in his book On Virgins.
I never suggested that a Josephite marriage was dissoluble. This is not just directed at you, Ptochos, but my whole point is that celibacy and marriage are antonyms! They are opposites! You cannot be married and celibate at the same time! It would be like being hot and cold at the same time, or it being dark and light at the same time.

From Fr John Hardon's Catholic Dictionary

Quote:CELIBACY. The state of being unmarried and, in Church usage, of one who has never been married. Catholicism distinguishes between lay and ecclesiastical celibacy, and in both cases a person freely chooses for religious reasons to remain celibate.


CONTINENCE. The virtue by which a person controls the unruly movements of sexual desire or other bodily emotions. It is connected with the virtue of temperance. It generally means the chastity to be observed by the unmarried. But it may also refer to the abstinence, in marriage, voluntarily agreed upon by both parties or forced by circumstances to abstain from marital intercourse. (Etym. Latin continentia, holding together, coherence; containing in itself, inclusion, restraint.)
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#15
I was always taught that the openness to having children was a condition of marriage in the Church. While Our Lady and St. Joseph would have never consummated the marriage, they still had a child (even though Joseph wasn't the biological father). If I remember correctly it is one of the questions of the premarital interview that the priest asks you.

Edit: OK, so in doing some research there's Canon 1061

Can. 1061 §1. A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

Apparently a ratum tantum marriage can be dissolved by the Pope. It can be dissolved if even one party wants to apparently. Although I have no idea if this Petrine privilege is something that's delegated or not. The consummating act makes the marriage indissoluble.
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#16
(03-15-2018, 01:40 PM)GangGreen Wrote: I was always taught that the openness to having children was a condition of marriage in the Church. While Our Lady and St. Joseph would have never consummated the marriage, they still had a child (even though Joseph wasn't the biological father). If I remember correctly it is one of the questions of the premarital interview that the priest asks you.

See the citation from Trent that Ptochos posted above. As I pointed out, there are Saints who entered into perfectly binding, valid marriages where both spouses agreed to not consummate it. 

I think the reason for the question in marriage prep is the quite reasonable assumption that a couple will have sex, so openness to life is a part of informed consent. If they have mutually agreed to not consummate the marriage, it in no way detracts from the consent that 'is sufficient to constitute a true marriage' according to Trent.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#17
Wait so did we figure out if you could be both celibate and married :huh:

gracemary did you abandon the thread?  Where are you at vis a vis this topic?  Same place?
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#18
A lot of people think that celibate means no sex. The result of celibacy is no sex or continancy.

The three words regarding sexual restraint that people tend to mix up
Chastity = No sex if not married. Allowing for sex when married.
Celibacy = No marriage (implies no sex as a result)
Continancy = No sex regardless of vocation

All Catholics are called to chastity.
All priests (Latin Rite) and religious are called to celibacy.
All those called to celibacy are called to continancy. Single  lay people are called to continancy, married people can optionally be continent either temporarily or permanently.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
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#19
Thank you, GangGreen!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#20
(03-15-2018, 10:45 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Wait so did we figure out if you could be both celibate and married :huh:
No! As I pointed out like three times, and as GangGreen explains above you cannot be both celibate and married!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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