Jumping In and Out of Hell
#21
Why is it that people (typically those who are unmarried, although lots of traditionalists seem to be vehemently anti NFP) always seem to think that NFP is the exact same as contraception? If you're using contraception perfectly you could have sex 30 days a month and you don't conceive. With NFP, if you're trying to avoid pregnancy you cannot have sex during the time of the month when she probably wants it most (because her body is saying "Hey, I'm fertile let's make a baby) and you sensing her fertility via pharamones want her most. Meanwhile, if you have a high sex drive already, you can't do anything about it except pray to avoid sins against chastity.

So how exactly is this the same? You want to say that those who are using it to have too few children (how ever many that is) are using it with ill intentions, fine. However, let's say someone uses it for a few years, then goes on to have 4 or 5 kids. Let's say they then continue to use it until the wife goes into menopause. Did they abuse NFP?
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
Reply
#22
(03-18-2018, 07:11 AM)Rivers Wrote: And what are our choices? You can take a girl that you can get, ignore the Church teachings and basically go to hell or live a life with no affection and intimacy. Let's be perfectly honest, if you insist on premarital abstinence and full adherence to Church teaching in marriage, you're chances of getting married are practically non existent. 

All the Catholic girls and women I have known who have been serious about their Faith would not entertain the idea of not being abstinent in a relationship geared towards marriage.

Now secular ladies, yes you are probably right.

Even then though I have never heard of the woman to be pressuring the man. Usually it's the other way around where women pretend they have no desires and the man has to prove he has what it takes to be worthy of her acquiescence by passing her tests for fitness.

Unless of course you are so charismatic a girl just cannot help but demanding it from you, but then brother you have a unique problem not many men can relate to.
Reply
#23
(03-18-2018, 01:10 PM)BC Wrote: Unless of course you are so charismatic a girl just cannot help but demanding it from you, but then brother you have a unique problem not many men can relate to.

No, I'm certainly not like that. The thing is, what percentage of girls haven't had sex by the time they're 20? Let's not even mention 25 or 28.
Reply
#24
(03-18-2018, 09:40 AM)GangGreen Wrote: Why is it that people (typically those who are unmarried, although lots of traditionalists seem to be vehemently anti NFP) always seem to think that NFP is the exact same as contraception? If you're using contraception perfectly you could have sex 30 days a month and you don't conceive. With NFP, if you're trying to avoid pregnancy you cannot have sex during the time of the month when she probably wants it most (because her body is saying "Hey, I'm fertile let's make a baby) and you sensing her fertility via pharamones want her most. Meanwhile, if you have a high sex drive already, you can't do anything about it except pray to avoid sins against chastity.

So how exactly is this the same? You want to say that those who are using it to have too few children (how ever many that is) are using it with ill intentions, fine. However, let's say someone uses it for a few years, then goes on to have 4 or 5 kids. Let's say they then continue to use it until the wife goes into menopause. Did they abuse NFP?

The question is the intention and the why.

It is very often that the mentality and idea is contraceptive, even if the act is not.

It's not murder to really want to kill someone but never to do so, but it is still the sin of murder to really and truly desire such, even if you never effectively carry it out. Sure the gravity is less, but it's still a grave sin. It's actually the same species of sin, but simply with different circumstances.

The same with contraception. To use a prophylactic or chemical means to prevent conception is not formally different from actively choosing to refrain from sex during a certain period in order not to have a child. The former can never be used correctly. Abstinenece can, so it permits us to consider such periodic continence from the aspect of double effect.

What is the effect willed, what is the end intended, and what are the means used?

If it is a bad end, even indifferent or good means become bad.

And that turns on precisely why to avoid having a child.

It's far different to say a couple making $200k per year can't afford a 3rd child from the woman with a disease that means a pregnancy carries a fairly serious risk of harm to her or the child.
Reply
#25
(03-18-2018, 01:10 PM)BC Wrote:
(03-18-2018, 07:11 AM)Rivers Wrote: And what are our choices? You can take a girl that you can get, ignore the Church teachings and basically go to hell or live a life with no affection and intimacy. Let's be perfectly honest, if you insist on premarital abstinence and full adherence to Church teaching in marriage, you're chances of getting married are practically non existent. 

All the Catholic girls and women I have known who have been serious about their Faith would not entertain the idea of not being abstinent in a relationship geared towards marriage.

Now secular ladies, yes you are probably right.

Even then though I have never heard of the woman to be pressuring the man. Usually it's the other way around where women pretend they have no desires and the man has to prove he has what it takes to be worthy of her acquiescence by passing her tests for fitness.

Unless of course you are so charismatic a girl just cannot help but demanding it from you, but then brother you have a unique problem not many men can relate to.

Just joining the pity party...

Prior to marriage, it's so very hard for secular or even NO Catholic girls and probably some trad girls to continually say no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no....  It's not like girls don't have hormones too!  I mean think about it guys, how would you fare if girls were constantly trying to get you to go just a little further, a little further, and manipulating you with flattery, professions of love, invitations to go on fun trips together, guilt manipulation, threats to end it...  Plus all the movies and tv shows and your friends and everyone in the whole world is "doing it".  And now that our society makes it so marriage isn't until you at least graduated from college, it's like a 10-year gauntlet for some of these girls.

With openness to life in marriage, I know it was super difficult sometimes in the old days, but now it's like everyone else gets ice cream but us!  

As for the single life, rough to be sure, but not anything more than what our priests and religious live with.

But, at least we aren't forced to marry someone in an arranged marriage, or marry at 15 and have 25 kids (love the kids and the souls, but I just can't imagine it)

Any way you slice it, any age you live in, it's always there:    the cross!
Reply
#26
(03-18-2018, 11:49 PM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: I mean think about it guys, how would you fare if girls were constantly trying to get you to go just a little further, a little further, and manipulating you with flattery, professions of love, invitations to go on fun trips together, guilt manipulation, threats to end it...  

I actually do have this problem.  When it comes to being relentlessly pursued, there are a few problems from the guy's side that I wonder if women experience.  The first is that women do. not. care. about whether a guy is in a relationship.  The old adage about an unavailable guy being more attractive to women is very true.  The second is that when guys aggressively pursue women, it's usually for sex.  When women aggressively pursue guys, it's for the whole package.  They seem to have this idea that if they can get their "foot in the door" then they can somehow sneak their way into a relationship.  But this comes with so much outright lying about what they want and how they feel that it's ridiculous.  I guess the parallel is men pretending they want more when they just want sex.  

Something I noticed more recently - Girls who are saving themselves will get very physical with you if they believe you are a "safe" guy, i.e., a practicing Christian I guess.  Lots of touching and handsiness and over the top flirtiness.  I can understand where it comes from, but it doesn't leave a lot of outs for me.  There's no way, directly or tacitly, to ask them to knock it off without unintentionally conveying interest on some level.  It's admitting that what they're doing is having an effect on you.  You stop being a "safe" guy, but at the expense of becoming a potential love interest.

I used to really, and I mean REALLY, enjoy female attention.  It's something that has turned bitter to me, and I consider that a grace.  But even though it's been several years since the Lord has gotten me under control in this aspect of my life, I still haven't found a solid protocol for deflection.  I honestly try my best, and it leaves me feeling down and guilty when, despite my best attempts to convey my lack of interest, it turns into "sexually harass Imperator Caesar Trump" time.

There's no one I can talk to about this either, so this post felt really good to type.
Reply
#27
It's really insane out there.

I saw this article a while ago which just demonstrates what I always said about feminism:  Instead of raising appreciation for women and what they contribute to society as wives and mothers (for which I do believe there was a need), it lowered them to become like the worst of men.  :puke:

https://www.henrymakow.com/2018/03/my-ti...-auth.html

The bottom line I guess is to be content wherever we are right now with very little expectations for anything.  :shrug:
Reply
#28
The thing is, the Church is not telling anyone to not do it. And people's convictions about the faith are weak anyway. But the problem is that when people used to get married at 18,19 or 20, this whole thing was doable. But at 29, gee whiz. I mean, I'm 26 and I have managed to avoid it so far because I'm lazy and never really go after girls but if I decide to enter a relationship I can't guarantee anything. Furthermore, mastrubation is considered equally bad, so if you're doing it you might as well get a girlfriend and just go for the real thing, both are mortal sins, but one is nicer.
And it is a gauntlet. An averagely attractive woman gets bombarded with male attention, I understand that. But I can't respect women who crave it and deliberately put themselves into a position where fornication can easily happen. I honestly thing that aside from the tribal pre historic period, this is the worst time to be a man ever. And on top of that, you have to basically choose whether to live in sin or live without female companionship.
Reply
#29
(03-19-2018, 02:49 AM)Rivers Wrote: But the problem is that when people used to get married at 18,19 or 20, this whole thing was doable. But at 29, gee whiz...

Priests and religious aren't asexual, and for a higher end, freely give up sexual pleasure.

It's not impossible and age has nothing to do with it. Virtue is not age-dependent.

Granted St. Paul says that those who cannot easily quell the flesh should marry, and he is right, but is not as if that is because such a one is completely incapable otherwise. That would be to say that God commands the impossible.

Controlling the passions is necessary for everyone, even the married. Marriage does not solve problems of chastity. If you go into marriage with problems of self-abuse or abuse chastity with a girlfriend or boyfriend marriage will not fix this. You will bring those problems to the marriage. Just because a man is married does not mean masturbation is not still a real risk. In fact, consider what will happen if he never learns self-control and virtue and then his wife becomes pregnant and at least for some time towards the end of that pregnancy and after birth, he must remain chaste without recourse to intercourse. Consider if his wife leaves him, or she decides to start using contraception which would make relations not only forbidden, but risks possible abortion due to the pill or chemicals. He has to stay continent and chaste, but if he never learns how to do that, he will go right back to self-abuse, illicit relations or even adultery.

It is a matter of will training and virtue. Everyone whether he is pursuing a religious life or marriage has to do that.
[-] The following 1 user Likes MagisterMusicae's post:
  • IntoTheMystic
Reply
#30
(03-19-2018, 03:04 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: It is a matter of will training and virtue. Everyone whether he is pursuing a religious life or marriage has to do that.

I think when you get married, at least 75% of the battle is won. People pursuing religious life probably aren't in a workplace where 80% of their colleagues are young women. They are also not on college campuses.
The real problem is this: the average age of a female getting married in the West is 28. You think more than 5% are still pure at that age? And men at 29? I am kinda tired of seeing people place all the burden on men, you must do this and that and so on. For what? For the sake of a woman who has already slept with 5 or 10 men? Because that's the only type of woman that's available to the average man nowadays. As for contraception, for me that is a moot point, if you deliberately want to avoid pregnancy, the way you do it is irrelevant. I honestly don't know what I would do but being in married for 40 years and not using it seems undoable.

I will honestly tell you, I'm 26, my country is 95% Catholic and I have never heard anyone my age or close to my age or younger or older saying they wish to abstain from pre marital sex. I have never heard anyone say anything bad about mastrubation. I know church girls and guys who sing in choirs and act like your average women's studies students. It's all a big, huge charade and I feel like I'm being made a fool of. And I know people who are much, much more frustrated about this to the point that it makes them depressed because they can't bring themselves to participate in the debauchery, yet they yearn for the affection and pleasure.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)