Abortion Bill In My Home State of Ohio! :D :D
#11
(03-20-2018, 01:20 AM)havok579257 Wrote: well the only way ginsburg is not on the court is through death.  she does not like Trump and will ride it out in hopes a liberal is the next president.  who knows with kennedy, he doesn;t seem to be going anywhere.
The last time I checked (about 5 minutes ago) they are both over the average life expectancy in the US. I hadn't heard that they were immortal. Trump is President for almost three more years. A lot can change in that time.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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Deum timete, regem honorificate.
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#12
(03-20-2018, 01:36 AM)Paul Wrote:
(03-20-2018, 01:20 AM)havok579257 Wrote: The minute the court changes, pass this law.  Pass this law in every state.  But in the current structure it will never even get past the appeals court.  they will be sued, they will lose, they will appeal and they will lose again.  case over.  it will not even come close to the supreme court. 

And what happens if, by the time that happens, the Ohio legislature is dominated by Democrats? Pass the law now, and if it's ruled unconstitutional, then it's unenforceable, but it's still on the books, waiting for Roe to be overturned.

but it does nothing on the books if the law is overturned.  its not like if the bill is ruled unconstitutional then the minute roe v wade is made illegal that law gets made legal.  they would have to draw up a new law.

i am all for getting rid of abortion but we need to do things that works and not stuff for show votes.  they politicians are doing it for votes down the road.  they can now say I am more pro life because I voted to pass a law to ban abortion.  this is the same thing so many republicans did during Obama's years in office.  they vote non stop to pass bills to stop Obamacare knowing full well Obama would never sign it.  like there was no point after the first time.  it was a waste of time and money to keep trying to pass an Obamacare repeal when Obama was in office other than to brag about it for votes later to conservatives.  Obama was never going to overturn his signature legislation.
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#13
(03-20-2018, 02:15 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(03-20-2018, 01:20 AM)havok579257 Wrote: well the only way ginsburg is not on the court is through death.  she does not like Trump and will ride it out in hopes a liberal is the next president.  who knows with kennedy, he doesn;t seem to be going anywhere.
The last time I checked (about 5 minutes ago) they are both over the average life expectancy in the US. I hadn't heard that they were immortal. Trump is President for almost three more years. A lot can change in that time.

and the minute the court changes, yes pass the law.  but this is a waste of time when it comes to restricting abortion right now.  its a show vote.

listen I am as pro-life as anyone when it comes to abortion.  I am literally a single issue voter.  I voted for Trump because he said he was pro-life.  I vote for politicians because they are pro-life, no matter how stupid I may think their policies are.  Its the sole reason I voted for Brownback even though he was an atrocious politician who under funded schools (the state now is legally required to come up with a lot of money,some estimates at 2 billion dollars over the next few years due to him, so taxes will have to increase), he ran the Kansas economy into the ground with so many cooperate tax cuts that we could never make our budget and so on.  He was not a good legislator and yet I always voted for him because he was pro-life.  SO I am as pro-life as they come.  Which is why I want things done that will actually work or have a chance to work.  The heartbeat bill.  A pain abortion bill.  A bill denying abortions due to discrimination of handicap or minority babies.  Laws that will make it so abortion clinics must be shut down because their standards and practices are horrible when it comes to being an out patient surgery center.  Stuff that can work now and are not just a show vote.

Yes, the minute Kennedy or Ginsburg are off the court, then pass every law possible to make abortion illegal.  Until then, it not gonna change and is just a politicians show vote for voters.
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#14
(03-20-2018, 09:41 AM)havok579257 Wrote: but it does nothing on the books if the law is overturned.  its not like if the bill is ruled unconstitutional then the minute roe v wade is made illegal that law gets made legal.  they would have to draw up a new law.

That's exactly what happens. The law stays on the books unless the Ohio legislature repeals it. It's just unenforceable, since anyone who gets charged would get the case dismissed due to the Supreme Court decision. But the law's still there. It doesn't go away because the Supreme Court says it's unconstitutional.

And maybe if the Supreme Court won't completely overturn Roe, it'll uphold some of these restrictions given what we now know about the unborn not just being 'clumps of cells' and feeling pain. There's at least the opportunity for a challenge to Roe, and it sends the message that states don't want abortion and that it should be illegal. Maybe the law, even if unenforceable, will cause at least some to think about it and choose not to abort.

You mentioned things like heartbeat bills and pain bills and standards for abortion clinics - all those are good laws, but they're just as useless, as the courts routinely strike those down as restrictions on a constitutional right. Maybe what needs to happen is that a doctor in Mississippi gets charged with performing an abortion past 15 weeks, convicted, and the case will end up at the Supreme Court - and if the same thing happens in a whole bunch of states, the Supreme Court's going to take up the issue. Leave the law unenforced until you get another conservative justice or two on the Court, and then use it.
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#15
(03-20-2018, 09:51 AM)havok579257 Wrote: Its the sole reason I voted for Brownback ...

Now I'm totally confused. You're arguing vociferously that until SCOTUS changes there's no sense in passing State laws that contradict Roe v Wade, but at the same time, you voted for an idiot (my DVW and I are both from Kansas and several of our kids live there, so we keep a close eye on the political situation) because he was pro-life. What difference would it have made? Anything he did was just a political show if your argument is correct.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#16
I will say that in some respect I agree with Havok on this one. Any state laws will just get shut down immediately and until the supreme court changes, RvW is not getting overturned any time soon.

On another subject, there is one funny thing that liberals have that conservatives seem to not have and that's patience. Liberals have spent decades (maybe even centuries) slowly degrading every aspect of Christendom. They did it in such a systematic way too. Loosen one bond and wait until the next generation grows up without that bond being there and then work on the next. Before you know it, people never remember a time when that bond was there and so you keep going and going. Loosening one thing at a time until nothing is left. 

When I was growing up in the 90s people still mocked gay people openingly and often. People called anything that was bad "gay." Being called "gay" or a "fag" was pretty much the ultimate insult as a guy. If you asked the average person in the 90s, the thought of gay marriage would have been reprehensible. Here we are in 2018 and the average person under the age of 30 (we may even be able to go higher) is 100% accepting of homosexuality and gay marriage. Add to that, people who are growing up today will never have known a time when gay marriage didn't exist. Just like anyone born after RvW never knew what the world was like before abortion was legal and even common.

Why do I say this? Because when it comes to our side, we try to go from 100 back to 0 in one shot. Ban abortion 100%! Sure, I'd love that, all of us would. However, maybe we need to restrict the crap out of it first? It's certainly a lot more difficult to go from decadence to purity than from purity to decadence. Maybe one way of doing it is a simple law that forces any and all recipients of an abortion to have an ultrasound, listen to the heartbeat, etc? That's a start. Doesn't seem to go against the current law. Next, how about ruling out mental health as a reason for having an abortion? How about removing the ability to have an elective abortion? Want to have an abortion? Then we'll only let you if you've been raped, there's incest, or at risk of dying. Guess what? You've already knocked out 99% of abortions at this point. Get creative and get things like this enacted to get the ball moving before you can fully ban abortion. Why do we always go all or nothing when it's logistically impossible?
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
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#17
(03-20-2018, 01:42 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(03-20-2018, 09:51 AM)havok579257 Wrote: Its the sole reason I voted for Brownback ...

Now I'm totally confused. You're arguing vociferously that until SCOTUS changes there's no sense in passing State laws that contradict Roe v Wade, but at the same time, you voted for an idiot (my DVW and I are both from Kansas and several of our kids live there, so we keep a close eye on the political situation) because he was pro-life. What difference would it have made? Anything he did was just a political show if your argument is correct.

completely outlawing abortion right now is just for show.  its a federal law and state law can not supersede federal law on this.  but there are many things politicians can do to either make abortion harder to get or easier to get and put more restrictions on or less restrictions on.

laws such as funding to abortion clinics, requiring abortion clinics to meet surgery center requirements and so on.  a pro abortion democrat can make abortion easier to get, can help more clinics get open, use taxes to help fund them, put less restrictions on them and so on.

look, I can't stand Brownback.  I am so glad he stepped down for something on Trump's religious team because he was a disaster for Kansas.  An absolute disaster.  Although voting for him or a pro abortion democrat who will help make more abortions happen is a no brainier for me.  I mean I would essentially vote for almost anything to get abortion ended.  If the democrats agreed to make a constitutional amendment banning all abortions only if taxes increased by 50% I would be one of the first people on board with this deal. That's how addiment I am to stop abortion.
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#18
(03-20-2018, 02:12 PM)GangGreen Wrote: I will say that in some respect I agree with Havok on this one. Any state laws will just get shut down immediately and until the supreme court changes, RvW is not getting overturned any time soon.

Funny how liberals don't say the same thing about gun control laws...
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#19
(03-20-2018, 02:12 PM)GangGreen Wrote: Why do I say this? Because when it comes to our side, we try to go from 100 back to 0 in one shot. Ban abortion 100%! Sure, I'd love that, all of us would. However, maybe we need to restrict the crap out of it first? It's certainly a lot more difficult to go from decadence to purity than from purity to decadence. Maybe one way of doing it is a simple law that forces any and all recipients of an abortion to have an ultrasound, listen to the heartbeat, etc? That's a start. Doesn't seem to go against the current law. Next, how about ruling out mental health as a reason for having an abortion? How about removing the ability to have an elective abortion? Want to have an abortion? Then we'll only let you if you've been raped, there's incest, or at risk of dying. Guess what? You've already knocked out 99% of abortions at this point. Get creative and get things like this enacted to get the ball moving before you can fully ban abortion. Why do we always go all or nothing when it's logistically impossible?

I don't entirely disagree with you, but those laws have been tried, and they get found unconstitutional. A Kentucky law requiring ultrasounds got struck down last year, as an Indiana law that prohibited abortion based on disability, and an ultrasound law in Oklahoma was ruled unconstitutional in 2013. These laws place an "undue burden" on women seeking to exercise a constitutional right. You know, like having to show ID before you vote.
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#20
(03-20-2018, 04:03 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(03-20-2018, 02:12 PM)GangGreen Wrote: I will say that in some respect I agree with Havok on this one. Any state laws will just get shut down immediately and until the supreme court changes, RvW is not getting overturned any time soon.

Funny how liberals don't say the same thing about gun control laws...

Yeah, they don't say that, but at the same time where have they gotten in terms of gun control laws? Any ground they make is little victories as they always have done. Restrict bit by bit until you have nothing left. Same story as usual. Oh sure, owning a gun is legal, but you can only own a pistol and owning any kind of magazine is illegal, so you get to load every shot one by one. Hey, we're still allowing you to bear arms!

Yet the problem is that we have crap judges who strike down any restrictions against abortion, see the trend? When the judges are the ones who decide if a law is "constitutional" and they rule based on their own ideologies rather than what the law actually says, you have issues. How can you make up ground until the whole of RvW is completely overturned?
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
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