The Further Division Coming in the Catholic Church
#1
I got this article by email this morning and I find it fascinating and perhaps some around here may resonate with some of it. So I made a poll to go along with the text of the message. I find myself in the third category, mostly. How would y'all categorize yourselves?


Quote: [url=https://www.sign.org/articles/division-coming-catholic-church?mc_cid=bfcdfc90c5&mc_eid=d3b7213c97]

The Further Division Coming in the Catholic Church

by TED FLYNN MARCH 22, 2018

G.K. Chesterton once said, “We don’t really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right when we are wrong.”

At the moment we are seeing a full-scale war over the direction of the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church. The pull and tug of those involved in the battle is what surely went on during the Reformation, as well as Vatican II. Make no bones about it, behind the scenes and often in stealth, there are those looking to aggressively change what has been taught for 2,000 years.

It has now been five years since March 13, 2013 when Pope Francis assumed his position as the Vicar of Christ on earth, and the changes to the church under his pontificate have been profound. The Reformation produced incalculable changes in the church and the world, and news traveled slowly because of the times in which they lived. When Martin Luther posted his ninety-five theses on a door for all to see in 1517, changes over time came to the church few could imagine. With Vatican II from 1962-65, we saw a further delineation and separation of thought with the New Order of the Mass (Novus Ordo) and a different doctrine emerging from previous ages.

There are naturally significant nuances and variations of thought with an estimated 1.3 billion Catholics in the world. We have not seen as great a division among the faithful since Vatican II. People at the moment are confused and finding it difficult to process all the language coming from leading clergy and what it actually means. Neither the Reformation nor Vatican II had social media, so that means what happens in Rome or Jerusalem today can be seen in real time. With millions of bloggers, websites, and reporters, so many people have an opinion on just about everything. There is often more heat than light in most conversations on church and politics.

As a result of what is taking place now, people seem to be falling into one of three main camps. These groups have emerged since the white smoke went up the chimney of the Sistine Chapel five years ago:

Group 1

This group is threatening to leave the church because they oppose what they consider are some heretical teachings by Pope Francis. They were put on guard over the number of homosexuals in key posts (where little seems to be done to reign it in), the direction of the Synods, and the ambiguous language of Amoris Laetitia (The Joy of Love) that many consider intentional. Amoris Laetitia was released on March 19, 2016 on the Feast of the Solemnity of Saint Joseph encapsulating the Synod (two) documents on love in the family. Many in this group were skeptical early in the pontificate of Francis with the first Synod being hijacked by a very liberal contingent of Bishops and Cardinals. This group is not sure where to go at the moment and are looking more and more to the Traditional Latin Mass for continuity or leaving the church outright. They have read The Dictator Pope, and The Lost Shepherd, How the Pope is Misleading His Flock, and other writings and they see them as true.

Group 2

This body of believers is remaining in the church and accepts the Synod writings of Pope Francis appear to have little problem with Amoris Laetitia. They do not speak against it, and accept it as true because it comes from the papacy. To question the papacy is not acceptable to this group.

Here is a fuzzy area. Many Catholics have a DNA strand that comes at birth to respect the authority of Rome as gospel. Many do not question it. They are soccer moms, maybe a dad or mom working two jobs or a lot of overtime to make ends meet, sacrificing for the love of family, as well as parents genuinely concerned about their kids grades and keeping little Johnny and Mary out of trouble with the neighborhood kids. Commuting home from work, they wonder how they will pay the orthodontist bills. The parents coach little league and take the girls to ballet lessons. It is often beyond their emotional capacity and time to read on magisterial documents on subjects they can’t control. They trust the church because they have been taught to trust the church. They are trying to get by in a culture deteriorating in front of their eyes.

Many in this group cannot tell you the language of encyclicals or the names of church hierarchy promoting an agenda one way or the other. They are moms and dads busy changing diapers, shopping, preparing food, and getting the kids to bed on time at night as this is their station in life. Often these people are the salt of the earth. They are being faithful to what they have been taught in the past and are sometimes unaware there is a hidden liberal agenda going on behind the scenes wanting to bring the church into a new direction. Sometimes there is a virulent strain with these folks if someone disagrees with them. They may see the wholesale apostasy of faith in our midst, and the church under attack, but they will stay the course with the papacy because they don’t know where else to turn.

Group 3

Here is the smallest group. This group opposes some of the teachings of Pope Francis as heretical as group 1 does, but this group decides to stay in the Church because they believe they are standing on magisterial truth that has endured through thick and thin for millennia, where the gates of hell will never alter the long-term direction of truth. This group considers the current confusion in the church just another bump in the long road of the Catholic Church. Often this group is persecuted and marginalized by group 2 for being critical of the Vicar of Christ. The five words of “Who Am I to Judge” sent them over the edge early in the Francis pontificate.

No one is now immune from this confusion. April 7, 2018 there is a conference in Rome with clergy attending beyond the Dubia to deal with the issues caused by statements and proclamations from Pope Francis called, The Catholic Church: Where Are You Heading?

The Answer

In 1830, the Blessed Mother came to a young novice in a chapel by the name of Catherine Laboure’ at Rue du Bac, Paris. Between July 18 and December 1830, Sister Catherine received the extraordinary favor of conversing with the Blessed Mother on three separate occasions. One time Our Lady pointed to the altar where the tabernacle was and said, “Come to the foot of this altar. Here, graces will be spread over all who ask for them with confidence and fervor.” Our Lady said her message at the time was not listened to as she asked. Our Lady as always was providing the answer for mankind and it was in Her Son.

So, in 1846, she appeared in an isolated farming hamlet to two young children in the mountains of France by the name of LaSalette. Here she gave one of the most severe messages in the history of apparitions. She said, “the priests, ministers of my Son, the priests by their wicked lives, by their irreverence and their impiety in the celebration of the holy mysteries, by their love of money, their love of honors and pleasures…the priests have become a cesspool of impurity…the church will be in eclipse… I gave you six days to work; I kept the seventh for myself, and no one wants to grant it to me. This is what weighs down the arm of my Son so much…Rome will become the seat of the anti-christ. Not exactly a casual message. On September 19, 1851 Pope Pius IX formally approved public devotion of the prayer referring to the messages of LaSalette as “secrets.” In 1879, Pope Leo XIII granted Canonical Coronation of the image of the Basilica of Our Lady of LaSalette.

There are many similar authentic messages like this over the last hundred years where it is said, “Satan would reach the interior and summit of the churchand the apostasy would become generalized.” The question must be asked what exactly is The Summit of the church?

The battle is intense and the moral welfare of future generations are at stake which is why we must focus on the cross and the fruits of Eucharistic

Adoration. It is heaven’s medicine for the ills of mankind. It is time to double down and go deeper in prayer and Adoration.

Jesus, I Trust on You
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
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Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
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If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
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You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
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#2
Third group, definitely. Hi, Z.
Eternal Father, I offer Thee the most precious blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said Throughout the world today, for all the holy souls in Purgatory. Amen.
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#3
Over the years I've shifted between position 1 and 3,but these days I'm basically Orthodox with a whole lotta love for the Western Patrimony. I still pray the breviary as much as I'm able but not in communion with Francis. Ive done a ton of soul searching and just cannot in good faith remain confident that Rome will right herself in the end.

While i truly love much of the Western Tradition I don't see it as really existing anymore outside a handful of scattered chapels and individuals,many of whom are in varying degrees of "partial communion" or estrangement from the modern Church.  

I find it easier to follow my conscience based on my own praying,reading,studying and thinking things through than to grin and bear the cognitive dissonance of trying to live a Traditional way in a church that arguably pissed away its own Patrimony over the last 100 years or ,and that apparently has no real desire to do anything but further solidify the new religion of Vatican II style ecumenical "Catholicism". 

Maybe I'm wrong,who knows? All i can do is be honest with God and myself and at this point (for a long time really) i have not been able to sit and say that i can remain a card carrying RC in full communion with the Pope and or that i accept Vatican II with docile obedience. For now i pray and do my thing but it must be estranged from Rome. 

Its been a long journey too! At any rate i still enjoy FE, still feel like it's a virtual home of sorts.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#4
(03-23-2018, 11:45 AM)dahveed Wrote: Third group, definitely. Hi, Z.
Agreed! It took me 20 years to accept the Papacy and I'm not going anywhere. I have Christ's promise that it will all come right in the end, whether I live to see it or not.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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Deum timete, regem honorificate.
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#5
I disagree with this article. For one thing, I think the majority are in Group 3. This is where all the FSSP, ICK, IBP people are, where the good people of ewtn are, etc. The SSPX are already back de facto, with the permissions regarding confessions and priestly ordinations.

I think that very few traditional people will leave the Church because of Francis. They know that there is nowhere else to go. Plus, people in Group 3, I think, generally know enough about the Faith to know how to go about living the Faith without any need of Francis. For that matter, most Christians throughout history went about their lives without knowing anything about their popes. They will stick with their breviary and their rosary and their devout lives, while popes come and go. I think this is already happening, evidence of which is the continued growth of the traditional movement in the world, a quiet but steady growth while the dead wood dies away. I think we are simply getting accustomed to not depending on anything good from Rome, at least not in our lifetimes, and this is in a way a very good lesson to us all: we don't need any of this Vatican news stuff. We need lives of prayer and the sacraments. Period.

One thing I would like to add: Robert Hugh Benson wrote an excellent little book called (I think) Christ In The Church. One of the ideas in this book is that the historical life of Our Lord is repeated throughout history in His Mystical Body, the Church. As a result, we should not be surprised to find that there are Judases in the Church, Judases who diss all the money dedicated to the liturgy, who diss the 'extravagance' of certain kinds of behaviour revolving around the Sacred Liturgy, Judases who talk a lot about the poor and about how much we should care for the poor, but Judases nonetheless, who are quick to seize properties, to seize power over institutions, over goods, over $$. Yes, we have some serious Judases in Rome. HOWEVER, note: Judas loses. Judas ends up dead and forgotten, and this, all of a sudden, right at the moment of supreme betrayal. This too will happen to this generation of Judases. How did Judas die? He committed suicide. What will suicide look like in our time and context? We shall see. Either way, we need not worry, because we know how this ends: Judas loses.
"The days have gone down in the West, behind the hills, into shadow." - Theoden, King.
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#6
(03-23-2018, 10:50 PM)maldon Wrote: I disagree with this article. For one thing, I think the majority are in Group 3. This is where all the FSSP, ICK, IBP people are, where the good people of ewtn are, etc. The SSPX are already back de facto, with the permissions regarding confessions and priestly ordinations.

I think that very few traditional people will leave the Church because of Francis. /snip/

One thing I would like to add: Robert Hugh Benson wrote an excellent little book called (I think) Christ In The Church. One of the ideas in this book is that the historical life of Our Lord is repeated throughout history in His Mystical Body, the Church. As a result, we should not be surprised to find that there are Judases in the Church, Judases who diss all the money dedicated to the liturgy, who diss the 'extravagance' of certain kinds of behaviour revolving around the Sacred Liturgy, Judases who talk a lot about the poor and about how much we should care for the poor, but Judases nonetheless, who are quick to seize properties, to seize power over institutions, over goods, over $$. Yes, we have some serious Judases in Rome. HOWEVER, note: Judas loses. Judas ends up dead and forgotten, and this, all of a sudden, right at the moment of supreme betrayal. This too will happen to this generation of Judases. How did Judas die? He committed suicide. What will suicide look like in our time and context? We shall see. Either way, we need not worry, because we know how this ends: Judas loses.
I agree. And, BTW, Msgr Benson's book is available at the Internet Archive for free download. Click here. It's also available on Amazon in hard-copy.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
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My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#7
(03-23-2018, 03:13 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Agreed! It took me 20 years to accept the Papacy and I'm not going anywhere. I have Christ's promise that it will all come right in the end, whether I live to see it or not.

Same here, but I'm just too lazy to find another "church". I guess my laziness paid off somehow lol!
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#8
I'm not completely comfortable with the options given, but if I had to choose, I'd put myself in Group #2, mixed with a little bit of Group #3.

I do not believe anything Pope Francis has said-- when he has spoken ex cathedra --has been heretical (so this would prevent me completely identifying with Group #3). However, some of his words outside of ex cathedra have made me nervous, and in this respect I am "waiting it out", knowing that the Church has endured much trial in her 2,000-year history.

A word about Pope Francis, to all his critics--

My own belief is that when Francis' time as Pope ends, his "liberal" supporters (both inside and outside the Church) will find, upon reflection, that in practice, he did nothing of consequence to install their views; they will become his critics as a result.

Conversely, his "conservative" critics will likewise find that little has actually changed, and after Francis has left the scene, they will come to a more favorable view of his time as Pope.

Let me explain what I mean:

Homosexuals will find that the Church still opposes gay marriage, and the practice of homosexuality in general; although the Church will not condemn someone simply for struggling with same-sex attraction . . . no change in doctrine here. Homosexuals will regret that they put him on the cover of one of their magazines, early in his Papacy, as "Man of the Year."

The Church will still condemn abortion ... again, no change in doctrine.

The Church will still not be ordaining women to the priesthood; for all the criticism Francis has taken from nervous conservatives that he may wish to change this, they disregard that Francis, despite conciliatory words to some people who wish to see this happen, has always referred back to Pope Saint John Paul II's ex cathedra statement in (1994?) unequivocally closing this issue. The Saint's words will stand.

The Church will still not support the use of artificial contraception as a matter of doctrine, regardless of Francis' confusing statements regarding its use in areas/situations where STI's such as AIDS are prevalent.

There "may" be a change regarding priestly celibacy (marriage) during Francis' pontificate; but as time goes by I am leaning towards believing that this will not change, either; in any case this is a matter of canon law and not unchangeable doctrine; as we all know, there were married priests in the past, and in theory, there could be again (and yes, I know there already are, in the case
of some formerly Anglican priests who converted to Catholicism).

There already are changes concerning the Church's views regarding the environment-- I think we're all aware of the encyclical --but again, this encyclical need not be interpreted nor applied in such a way that it conflicts with doctrine. We must remember that though Scripture places man in dominion over nature, Scripture calls us to practice this in the spirit of stewardship of a gift God has given us; from what I've read of the encyclical, that's all I got out of it. It was not calling for some New Age pagan worship of nature.

Finally, something else to reflect on: Pope Francis has said early in his Papacy that he liked the example Pope Benedict XVI set by not making the Papacy a lifetime Office; and Francis said he'd like other Popes to follow; Francis said himself that he would probably retire, rather than die in the Holy Office, and if memory serves, I believe he set a tentative date of 2018.

We shall see.

In any case, the Church shall persevere.
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#9
(03-24-2018, 08:51 AM)gospel654 Wrote: I'm not completely comfortable with the options given, but if I had to choose, I'd put myself in Group #2, mixed with a little bit of Group #3.

I do not believe anything Pope Francis has said-- when he has spoken ex cathedra --has been heretical (so this would prevent me completely identifying with Group #3). However, some of his words outside of ex cathedra have made me nervous, and in this respect I am "waiting it out", knowing that the Church has endured much trial in her 2,000-year history.

A word about Pope Francis, to all his critics--

My own belief is that when Francis' time as Pope ends, his "liberal" supporters (both inside and outside the Church) will find, upon reflection, that in practice, he did nothing of consequence to install their views; they will become his critics as a result.

Conversely, his "conservative" critics will likewise find that little has actually changed, and after Francis has left the scene, they will come to a more favorable view of his time as Pope.

Let me explain what I mean:

Homosexuals will find that the Church still opposes gay marriage, and the practice of homosexuality in general; although the Church will not condemn someone simply for struggling with same-sex attraction . . . no change in doctrine here. Homosexuals will regret that they put him on the cover of one of their magazines, early in his Papacy, as "Man of the Year."

The Church will still condemn abortion ... again, no change in doctrine.

The Church will still not be ordaining women to the priesthood; for all the criticism Francis has taken from nervous conservatives that he may wish to change this, they disregard that Francis, despite conciliatory words to some people who wish to see this happen, has always referred back to Pope Saint John Paul II's ex cathedra statement in (1994?) unequivocally closing this issue. The Saint's words will stand.

The Church will still not support the use of artificial contraception as a matter of doctrine, regardless of Francis' confusing statements regarding its use in areas/situations where STI's such as AIDS are prevalent.    

There "may" be a change regarding priestly celibacy (marriage) during Francis' pontificate; but as time goes by I am leaning towards believing that this will not change, either; in any case this is a matter of canon law and not unchangeable doctrine; as we all know, there were married priests in the past, and in theory, there could be again (and yes, I know there already are, in the case
of some formerly Anglican priests who converted to Catholicism).

There already are changes concerning the Church's views regarding the environment-- I think we're all aware of the encyclical --but again, this encyclical need not be interpreted nor applied in such a way that it conflicts with doctrine. We must remember that though Scripture places man in dominion over nature, Scripture calls us to practice this in the spirit of stewardship of a gift God has given us; from what I've read of the encyclical, that's all I got out of it. It was not calling for some New Age pagan worship of nature.

Finally, something else to reflect on: Pope Francis has said early in his Papacy that he liked the example Pope Benedict XVI set by not making the Papacy a lifetime Office; and Francis said he'd like other Popes to follow; Francis said himself that he would probably retire, rather than die in the Holy Office, and if memory serves, I believe he set a tentative date of 2018.

We shall see.

In any case, the Church shall persevere.

I agree very much with most of this, if not all of it. Ultimately, I think that Pope Francis is really trying to "do VII" in the sense that he is trying to open the Church to the world in every area in which there is no direct contradiction of dogma. As a result, he will not pronounce anything that we are held to believe that is contrary to traditional belief; instead, he will change practice, he will change canon law, he will change perceptions, and all of these changes are likely to upset or disgust traditional, devout Catholics. But until he tries to impose a belief on all the Faithful that is contrary to established dogma, he is really inside of a grey zone in which he can say and do things and not get in trouble for heresy or anything like that. And I think he really is the 'spirit of VII'. I don't like it, none of it, but my liking it or not liking it is irrelevant to the reality that nothing dogmatic has been changed in reality, and fortunately, nothing that he says or does prevents me from my life of traditional devotion, absolutely nothing. 

I suspect that when he is gone (I do not think he will retire) there will be a lot of confusion in the Vatican, and in the end, some sort of middle of the road guy will emerge, but this time the (rather timid) watchdogs will be ready and will have sent warnings to prevent anyone from going farther than Francis did. I think that in this vein, again, the old, spiritually infertile guard will die out for lack of vocations, and eventually, when I am old or dead, the current ranks of young, vibrant, traditional priests will gradually HAVE to become bishops and eventually they will get a Pope. And then things will be fixed.

When I read what sort of lifestyle former homosexuals describe as their typical life, none of it is aimed towards a life of self-sacrifice, so they are unlikely, despite all the encouragement they will get, to provide numerous vocations. Ditto for liberals, and for every non-traditional form of living I can think of. Same goes for married priests. This foolish experiment will end in disaster. Married men don't want more work. This is going nowhere in reality, as much as it may become temporarily encouraged. The business of giving Holy Communion to the divorced and remarried is also going nowhere. Divorced and remarried Catholics who actually care about deepening their lives in the Faith are not likely to be comfortable with this new idea anyway. And the Pope can change canon law to affect such a practice without this being the same as his declaring something positively against the Commandments or the indissolubility of marriage. Again, he is changing practice without imposing a new dogma. No, I don't like it one bit, but that is irrelevant. Yes, a bunch of old liberal ones who feel bad about looking like they are 'left out' at Communion will go now, but again, I think this is a dying breed. Where I live, marriage is also dying out almost completely, as is religious practice. This will continue, while Trads also continue, but with more vocations piling on and the deaths and apostasies of liberals, it is still, for us, only a matter of time. Unpleasant, but no one is stopping us from our devout lives in the Church, so there is no need to go anywhere.
"The days have gone down in the West, behind the hills, into shadow." - Theoden, King.
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