Now this is a Parish to strike fear into Francis' heart!
#11
(04-15-2018, 03:21 PM)GangGreen Wrote:
(04-15-2018, 02:38 PM)Freudentaumel Wrote: I think it's God's way of protecting the TLM. If there was a widespread vernacular version, some priests would tempted ad-lib and introduce all the funky stuff going on in the NO. But it's in Latin and the priests that would do such things tend to be not good enough in Latin to ad-lib.

Many people who were around pre-VII used to talk about abuses of TLM as well. You had priests that sped through the mass in 10 minutes, priests who didn't teach the servers any of the meanings behind what they were saying, all sorts of things. It's part of why you see so many of the boomer generation who are against TLM. Their memories of it were soured due to poor priests.

Have you actually ever talked to anyone personally who witnessed a 10 minute mass?
I have heard these rumors, too. But when I started to ask, there was never anyone who actually witnessed a 10 minute mass. I tend to think much of the "that's how it was before Vatican II" is just propaganda designed to denigrate Traditional Catholicism, similar to the black legends about medieval times.

Here is an interview with the late Cardinal Bartolucci, in which he sets the record straight on this matter:
Quote:Interviewer: Maestro, you have to admit to those who are denigrating the old Mass that it is not a Mass open to participation.

Card. Bartolucci: So that you won't think that I'm just saying anything, I know how participation in old times was like, both in Rome, in the (St. Peter's) Basilica and outside it, for instance down here in Mugello, in this parish, in this beautiful countryside, which was then populated by people strong in faith and full of piety. During Sunday Vespers the priest could just start singing “Deus in adiutorium meum intende” and thereafter fall asleep on his seat to wake up only at the “chapter”, the peasants would have continued alone and the heads of the family would have intoned the antiphon!
"What you make with our Lord?" -Bishop Athanasius Schneider
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#12
(04-15-2018, 03:59 PM)Freudentaumel Wrote: Have you actually ever talked to anyone personally who witnessed a 10 minute mass?

Well, he's never talked to me, but I have. OK, to be fair, it might have been 12 or 15 minutes at the outside. It was an old Irish Priest, Fr O'Shea, and he could scoot through that Latin at a hundred miles an hour. I knew no Latin at the time, so I have no idea how good the pronunciation was.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
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#13
One Novus Ordo parish invites a priest to come to offer the TLM on Sundays at noon.  I do not always get there but did today.  LOTS of children and babies in attendance!  Well behaved and well dressed children.  Well dressed adults too for that matter. Not to say fancy but modest clothing.  The N.O. priest hears confessions during the Mass and there is always a line.

In a way, the TLM is an "acquired taste" for those who have never experienced it before but after coming for a while, it is jarring to attend the normal novus ordo with all the noise before, during, and after Mass and the immodest or too casual clothing, the banal songs, etc.   I learned the TLM when I picked up a missal and began to pray it so as to not be so upset over liturgical abuses in my novus ordo parish.  

If I had a traditional parish close by, I would join there.  I want to feed my soul with holy teachings and reverent Masses and the fullness of our patrimony.
Ave Maria!
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#14
(04-15-2018, 04:37 PM)Magdalene Wrote: all the noise before, during, and after Mass 

We are blessed in the Diocese of Lincoln. A friend of mine, who grew up here but now lives in the Diocese of Des Moines,  says the biggest thing she misses about going to Mass over here is the silence.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
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#15
I don't understand Latin, but that's why I have a 1962 missel. To me the more you do something the easier it gets. I've been learning the Ave Maria and soon I hope to say the whole rosary in Latin.

As long as the hippie 60's and 70's Cardinals and their lackey Bishops are around nothing will change. It will take more than obvious evidence to change their minds. If Our Lady appeared to the Pope I believe he still wouldn't act.
Bob

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“No one in the world can change Truth!”
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#16
If it's in the vernacular, it's not the TLM. The Mass needs to be in Latin to retain its meaning and beauty. Gregorian chant and the very sounds of the ancient Latin evoke  the ancient. Vernacularize it, and we not only lose that beauty, the knowledge that we're worshiping in the same way our ancestors did, and that sense of the old, but we're right back to the problems we have with the N.O. -- faulty translations, political correctness, playing around with the liturgy.

People who speak different languages would be going to different Masses -- Spanish speakers at 9am, English at 11am, etc. It's divisive. Traveling from one's own country to another land means you wouldn't be able to follow along unless you buy a new Missal in a different language. It's ridiculous. The TLM worked universally -- in China, India, Europe, the Americas -- everywhere --  for a few thousand years; it should be good enough for us.

It's not hard to follow the Mass if you use a Missal (if it's the TLM, you only need one), and after you've done it a few times, you don't even need that for the Ordinary.

Muslims manage to pray in Arabic, and Jews manage to pray in Hebrew. We're not so stupid we can't handle Latin.
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#17
(04-15-2018, 02:03 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: No. That's called an Anglican 'Mass'.

(04-15-2018, 02:28 PM)GangGreen Wrote: I don't disagree, but I can't see it being allowed any time soon. The hierarchy doesn't mind the TLM being a smallish thing that's off to the side in order to appease those traditionalists. If you had a vernacular version of the old Mass, it may become more than just a thorn in their sides where your average Mass goer may start requesting the old Mass in the vernacular and a priest won't have the excuse of not knowing Latin well enough.

I haven't had the chance to go to one yet, but the Ordinariate mass, as approved 3 years ago in Divine Worship: The Missal, is comparable to an EF mass in English and is perfectly legitimate. (Since it descends from the Sarum Rite, not the Tridentine, calling it just "the EF in English" would be misleading.) As it happens I just found out there's going to be a Pontifical High Mass celebrated here in the Ordinariate Use in May, which I'm looking forward to attending. There's no equivalent for other languages, though.

From what I understand, though, the Ordinariate hasn't been terribly well treated under the current pontificate so GangGreen might have a point.

FWIW the EF mass I go to every Sunday is at a Dominican priory and is celebrated in the Dominican Rite, which is another liturgical outlier and different from the classic TLM. The brothers  give us booklets with the ordinaries and some explanatory comments, and inserts with the propers. They also offer confession round the clock!
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#18
(04-16-2018, 03:32 AM)VoxClamantis Wrote: If it's in the vernacular, it's not the TLM. The Mass needs to be in Latin to retain its meaning and beauty. Gregorian chant and the very sounds of the ancient Latin evoke  the ancient. Vernacularize it, and we not only lose that beauty, the knowledge that we're worshiping in the same way our ancestors did, and that sense of the old, but we're right back to the problems we have with the N.O. -- faulty translations, political correctness, playing around with the liturgy.

People who speak different languages would be going to different Masses -- Spanish speakers at 9am, English at 11am, etc. It's divisive. Traveling from one's own country to another land means you wouldn't be able to follow along unless you buy a new Missal in a different language. It's ridiculous. The TLM worked universally -- in China, India, Europe, the Americas -- everywhere --  for a few thousand years; it should be good enough for us.

It's not hard to follow the Mass if you use a Missal (if it's the TLM, you only need one), and after you've done it a few times, you don't even need that for the Ordinary.

Muslims manage to pray in Arabic, and Jews manage to pray in Hebrew. We're not so stupid we can't handle Latin.

I agree, but we now have multiple generations of Catholics now who don't know a word of Latin. To make the switch back all at once would be extremely jarring for the average person. You can certainly integrate Latin chant and other Latin prayers into a vernacular liturgy, and quite frankly many/most of the prayers aren't even heard by the laity anyway, so those would have no need of being in the vernacular.

One interesting thing about the Jews and Muslims is that those who take their religion seriously enough will not only understand, but be able to speak the language as well. Whereas Catholics for whatever reason ignored doing such a thing, especially in modern times where educating the masses would have been so much easier. I guess they both have an advantage where their religious language is also engrained into their culture. Latin has all but been abandoned as a common or cultural language in the West or anywhere that Catholicism is or once was the dominant religion.
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#19
(04-16-2018, 03:32 AM)VoxClamantis Wrote: People who speak different languages would be going to different Masses -- Spanish speakers at 9am, English at 11am, etc. It's divisive. Traveling from one's own country to another land means you wouldn't be able to follow along unless you buy a new Missal in a different language. It's ridiculous. The TLM worked universally -- in China, India, Europe, the Americas -- everywhere --  for a few thousand years; it should be good enough for us.

Erik Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn pointed out that before the 'vernacularisation' of the Mass, the Cathedral in Saigon had three Masses on Sunday morning. Because of the multi-ethnicity of the city, after the Mass was translated, they had somewhere in the neighbourhood of six or seven, all in different languages and there were still people who couldn't understand the Mass. There's no market for Vietnamese-Hmong missalettes, or any of the other multiple combinations possible.

Another point he made was that the 'progressives' in the Council had taken a very retrograde decision in translating the Mass. For the first time in human history, travel had become relatively easy and common among many peoples. Prior to the 20th century, if one travelled it was usually a short trip within one's own linguistic community or it was emigration. If one emigrated, one learned the language where  one settled. If the Mass had been in national languages then it would not have been a big deal. But it wasn't and emigrants could attend Mass and know what was going on. With the development of hand missals for the laity, it became even easier.

Then, when many people could finally afford to travel for pleasure, especially in Europe with its multiplicity of languages, BAM! The Mass is translated so that if one were to make the Grand Tour, one would need to understand a different language in almost every country one visited.

Of course, I've been convinced for years that the aim of the progressives, not necessarily the Bishops, but the liberal periti, was to destroy the Church as a unified body and to convert it into national 'Churches' a la Orthodoxy and protestantism.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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