Delicate question about sexuality (warning: graphic language)
#15
(04-16-2018, 11:51 AM)austenbosten Wrote:
(04-16-2018, 05:01 AM)Ludovicus Wrote:
Quote:No, it is not, but I will say it is immoral for the wife to "stimulate" herself to orgasm. This is masturbation and it should be the husband who does this if she has not climaxed yet.

Sex must always be a unitive, cooperative act where climaxing is a result from the stimulation of the other spouse.

Thank you for your contribution, Austenbosten. This is not the subject of this thread but I respectfully disagree with you. It is preferable if it is the husband who stimulate the wife. Nonetheless, it is not immoral if she does it herself and it is not masturbation. Masturbation is a selfish act and in our case it is part of a real marital act. My opinion is based on saint Alphonsus Liguori or Fr. Marie-Michel Labourdette, O.P., to name only two well-known theologians. 

Well just so you know, the Magisterium has spoken on this and you are wrong.

Quote:The traditional Catholic doctrine that masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder is often called into doubt or expressly denied today. It is said that psychology and sociology show that it is a normal phenomenon of sexual development, especially among the young. It is stated that there is real and serious fault only in the measure that the subject deliberately indulges in solitary pleasure closed in on self ("ipsation"), because in this case the act would indeed be radically opposed to the loving communion between persons of different sex which some hold is what is principally sought in the use of the sexual faculty.

This opinion is contradictory to the teaching and pastoral practice of the Catholic Church. Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19]

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9. Fréquemment aujourd’hui on met en doute ou l’on nie expressément la doctrine catholique traditionnelle selon laquelle la masturbation constitue un grave désordre moral. La psychologie et la sociologie, dit-on, démontrent que, surtout chez les jeunes, elle est un phénomène normal de l’évolution de la sexualité. Il n’y aurait de faute réelle et grave que dans la mesure où le sujet céderait délibérément à une auto-satisfaction close sur soi (« ipsation »), car alors l’acte serait radicalement contraire à la communion amoureuse entre des personnes de sexe différent, dont certains prétendent qu’elle est ce qui est principalement recherché dans l’usage de la faculté sexuelle.

Cette opinion contredit la doctrine et la pratique pastorale de l’Eglise catholique. Quoi qu’il en soit de la valeur de certains arguments d’ordre biologique ou philosophique dont se sont servis parfois les théologiens, en fait, tant le Magistère de l’Eglise, dans la ligne d’une tradition constante, que le sens moral des fidèles ont affirmé sans hésitation que la masturbation est un acte intrinsèquement et gravement désordonné.(14)


Persona Humana

English - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...na_en.html
Français - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...na_fr.html


Don't say that I am wrong, Sir. At the most you can say that you disagree with me.

I don't know if you can read latin and french but here are some texts that could interest you.

Quote:919. – An autem, si vir se retrahat post seminationem, sed ante seminationem mulieris, possit ipsa statim tactibus se excitare, ut seminet ? Negant Auctor additionum ad Wigandt (tr. 16. post n.106.) ac Diana et Rodr. (ap. Boss. l.9. n. 54.), adhaeretque Pal. (p. 4. §.3. n.6) dicens, id non esse licitum, si mulier posset se continere. Ratio, qui semen mulieris non est necessarium ad generationem ; item quia effusio illa mulieris, utpote separata, non fit una caro cum viro. Communius vero affirmant (Wigandt tr.16. n.103. v.solve, Less l.4. c.3. n.94., Bon. q.4. p.6. n.15. in fine cum Sanch. l.9. d.17. n.10., Pot. T.1. c.4. n4310., Tambur dec. l.1. c.3. §.5. n.18., Salm. c.15. n.80. in fine cum Dic., Fill. tr.10 n.330., Sport. n.491., Boss. c.9. n.55. cum Aversa, Perez, Fag. et Leand. ac Elbel conf.17. n. 425. cum Cleric., Honob., Diana, Gob. et Bosco.), et non reprobat Conc. (p. 406. n.11.). Ratio, tum quia seminatio mulieris pertinet ad complendum actum conjugalem, qui consistit in seminatione utriusque conjugis ; unde, sicut potest uxor tactibus se praeparare ad copulam, ita etiam potest actum copulae perficere : tum quia, si mulieris post talem irritationem tenerentur naturam compescere, essent ipsae jugiter magno periculo expositae mortaliter peccandi, cum frequentius viri, quia calidiores, prius seminent (sed haec ratio non suadet ; nam si hoc permitteretur uxoribus, deberet permitti etiam viris, casu quo mulier post suam seminationem se retraheret, et vir maneret irritatus ; at DD. Communiter dicunt, id vetitum esse viris, ut Sanchez (n.10.), Wigandt et Bon. l. c.) ; tum quia, ut plures sentiunt, seminatio mulieris est necessaria vel saltem multum confert ad generationem ; nihil enim a natura frustraneum agitur. Omnes autem concedunt uxoribus, quae frigidioris sunt naturae, posse tactibus se excitare ante copulam, ut seminent in congressu maritali statim habendo (vide Conc. n.13.).

Tractatus de matrimonio, Alphonsus Liguori

Quote:« […] il sera donc permis à la femme de commencer plus tôt son excitation sexuelle (cf. Cajetan, in IIa-IIae, question 154, 11, IX) mais il vaut beaucoup mieux que ce soit par les soins du mari. Bien plus, les moralistes autorisent la femme qui n'a pas atteint l'orgasme au moment de la copulation à poursuivre elle-même l'excitation jusqu'à ce qu'elle l'ait atteint : ce n'est pas une masturbation, c'est aider la nature dans l'achèvement d'un acte bon et normal. » p.92.

Cours de Théologie Morale N°15 La Vie Sexuelle La Chasteté, Père Marie-Michel LABOURDETTE, 1958, Toulouse, Studium Saint Thomas d'Aquin, 244 p.

The text that you quoted says that masturbation is a grave sin and I agree with that. A woman touching herself during a marital act is not masturbation, here is the point.
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RE: Delicate question about sexuality (warning: graphic language) - by Ludovicus - 04-16-2018, 03:22 PM



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