Need FSSP help (again) - please to respond
#11
Honestly, if you're going to be active in the parish and the priest seems to think of you as a good asset, then why should he care whether you're an FSSP guy? The fact that you're a Catholic guy is the most important. If his concern is you going to the SSPX, then he should be more concerned with why someone would leave his parish in the first place and what he can do to prevent that. At least I would think a good pastor would be more curious in such a thing rather than trying to convince someone of the FSSP vs. SSPX argument. If you truly feel that the SSPX is better for you due to no fault of the pastor then he should just accept that. Sounds a bit like pride on his part.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
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#12
I don't think we can really imagine what it's like to be a priest and especially a Trad priest in the Church today.

Everything you say, or don't say or gestures you make or don't make, can and will be used against you by someone somewhere at any time.

Not to mention the reality that someone can falsely accuse you of something and boom, you're finished.

They are literally on a constant tightrope.

Anyone who has had a certain amount of contact with you, ICT, knows you are a force to be reckoned with.

It's not hard to imagine someone who has charisma, intelligence, and an ax to grind with the hierarchy stirring up the folks and potentially becoming a pied piper.

These priests have given up their lives and specifically many years in training and preparation to finally become ordained and then to finally have a parish of their own.

You can't really blame them for being a bit overprotective of their investment.

Plus, if he is to actually become your "Pastor", or your "Father" then he wants to know that you will be able to take instruction and live in obedience.
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#13
My brother is new to a FSSP parish and one of the priests has agreed to be his spiritual director and has done a fantastic job with him so far...Father put many concerns to rest, he has recommended excellent reading material and has helped my brother to move forward in a holy spiritual life.  No mention of "territorial" things.   

Perhaps for a person coming from the SSPX--I know several of such ones--and while I sympathize with much of their thought, some are very radical and might not even be comfortable in a FSSP parish because of many prejudices against the 'establishment Church'--again, I can understand and as difficult as it may be at present, we must remain within.
Ave Maria!
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#14
(04-17-2018, 11:35 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: I don't think we can really imagine what it's like to be a priest and especially a Trad priest in the Church today.

Everything you say, or don't say or gestures you make or don't make, can and will be used against you by someone somewhere at any time.

Not to mention the reality that someone can falsely accuse you of something and boom, you're finished.

They are literally on a constant tightrope.

Anyone who has had a certain amount of contact with you, ICT, knows you are a force to be reckoned with.

It's not hard to imagine someone who has charisma, intelligence, and an ax to grind with the hierarchy stirring up the folks and potentially becoming a pied piper.

These priests have given up their lives and specifically many years in training and preparation to finally become ordained and then to finally have a parish of their own.

You can't really blame them for being a bit overprotective of their investment.

Plus, if he is to actually become your "Pastor", or your "Father" then he wants to know that you will be able to take instruction and live in obedience.

I guess I missed my calling as a megachurch pastor.  My journey through traditionalism has been... just so weird.  :s
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#15
(04-17-2018, 01:52 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(04-17-2018, 11:35 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: I don't think we can really imagine what it's like to be a priest and especially a Trad priest in the Church today.

Everything you say, or don't say or gestures you make or don't make, can and will be used against you by someone somewhere at any time.

Not to mention the reality that someone can falsely accuse you of something and boom, you're finished.

They are literally on a constant tightrope.

Anyone who has had a certain amount of contact with you, ICT, knows you are a force to be reckoned with.

It's not hard to imagine someone who has charisma, intelligence, and an ax to grind with the hierarchy stirring up the folks and potentially becoming a pied piper.

These priests have given up their lives and specifically many years in training and preparation to finally become ordained and then to finally have a parish of their own.

You can't really blame them for being a bit overprotective of their investment.

Plus, if he is to actually become your "Pastor", or your "Father" then he wants to know that you will be able to take instruction and live in obedience.

I guess I missed my calling as a megachurch pastor.  My journey through traditionalism has been... just so weird.  :s

Lol.  :)

These are weird times my friend!
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#16
(04-17-2018, 10:51 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(04-17-2018, 12:35 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: This is most unusual.

Did he give you any suggestions on what to read?

No, unfortunately.  And I don't really know where to look.  The FSSP seems to keep their head down and not say much, so I'm not sure where he wants me to go.  

(04-17-2018, 12:37 AM)MeanGene Wrote: I'm a bit surprised by your post as well. I've spent the last ten years or so shifting from FSSP parish to SSPX parish depending on where I was located and I've never encountered a priest from either group that demanded a "vetting" of sorts before registering at the parish. To be fair, I've also never met with a priest and laid out my position in regards to the Church's present crises. I'm there chiefly for mass and confession. It might be too late for this, but you might want to stress at your next "oil check" that your goal in being at the parish is to advance in holiness and despite any strong opinions you might possess you'd like to set them aside for the time being and focus on your interior life.

 My guess is the priest isn't really worried about your positions so much as he is worried about how you'll behave at the parish and whether or not you'll "under cut" his authority by nitpicking at his preaching etc. That's not to say you'd do that on purpose, but I once caused a problem in a N.O. parish by aggressively debating a particular woman on an issue while assuring her that who ever had told her she was right was either stupid or lying. As it turns our the person who had told her she was "right" was the parish priest. As you can imagine proving that the parish priest was wrong about a given issue in front of other parishioners was kind of an issue. 

Just try and remind yourself that you aren't there to save the Church. The Church is there to save you. You don't have to burden yourself with having to correct every incorrect thing you come across in conversation at the parish hall.

I don't think I came across in the way you're describing; at least, I didn't intend to.  My intention in meeting him wasn't even to talk about any of this Church crisis crap.  I'm really trying not to care about it, actually.  When I mentioned I went to an SSPX mission, I tempered it by saying that I don't agree on their position on the FSSP and that I understand and respect the Fraternity and actively want to be more fully integrated into the Church.  I also addressed *specifically* and explicitly the point about how I'd behave in the parish by saying, word for word, this: "I understand that in your position, it would cause you a lot of trouble to register me if I then went around talking about the SSPX and badmouthing the archbishop.  That isn't why I'm here, and if it was, I'd go back to an SSPX mission.  I discerned the priesthood in this diocese and I've worked in politics.  I wouldn't do something like that even if I felt I should because I'm very capable of understanding the delicate politics of a traditionalist parish in a liberal diocese."

In fact, it's the opposite of what you said.  He accepted, but ultimately brushed off concerns about how I'd behave.  He wants an internal conversion fully and completely.  I'll try to transcribe what he said to me about this: "I'm a simple parish priest, and the people here don't think about the things you're talking about.  I don't even talk to them about it.  They might have their issues with the Pope, but they don't read Canon Law.  You talk about the Church like priests talk about it.  Even if you don't mean to, you could lead people away... [later] ... Since you have this intelligence and this way with words, that's how I need you to approach our conversations.  You need to make the perfect argument for why you'd attend an FSSP church even if an SSPX one was right across the street.  It has to convince me, but I also need to know it convinces you.  Trust me, I can sniff out a rat a mile away."

He actually said that lol.  Hold on.  I'm getting an idea for a novel.

(04-17-2018, 01:12 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: If I may ask ICT, is the priest you met with Fr Wolfe?

I personally know many FSSP priests and many SSPX priests.

I know of no SSPX priest who would deny someone access to the "parish" until they prove they are not anti-FSSP, even if they have publicly shared negative comments about the FSSP.

Likewise, I know of no FSSP priest who would do the same toward those who came from the SSPX.

I have heard through some of those FSSP priests, however, of some of their brethren who have become anti-SSPX zealots, and one of those is Fr Wolfe, whose turn that direction and his influence has been documented.

It wasn't Fr. Wolfe, but it does sound like him.  I had a similar experience with the SSPX to what you're describing. They were very welcoming and didn't have these kinds of concerns/hang-ups.  The conversation caught me very off-guard.  I have trouble getting a read on this priest from the one conversation, but my suspicion is that he's either a) a zealot, or b) under a lot of pressure from the archbishop to make sure that the parish is traditional without causing any trouble or being too "radical".  It may be a combination of both; he talked about how SSPX people would throw rocks at FSSP churches and get violent with them.  But on the other hand, I wouldn't underestimate just how delicate the political situation in the diocese is.  I believe the FSSP would get kicked out at the first sign of any "wrongthink".
Peace.....could it be this priest has had an issue with someone in the past and is just using caution?  I do think though, he just wants you to have a strong conviction of why you are attending the FSSP parish and not running back and forth.  Could that be possible?  God bless, angeltime :heart:
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#17
(04-17-2018, 01:12 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: If I may ask ICT, is the priest you met with Fr Wolfe?

I personally know many FSSP priests and many SSPX priests.

I know of no SSPX priest who would deny someone access to the "parish" until they prove they are not anti-FSSP, even if they have publicly shared negative comments about the FSSP.

Likewise, I know of no FSSP priest who would do the same toward those who came from the SSPX.

I have heard through some of those FSSP priests, however, of some of their brethren who have become anti-SSPX zealots, and one of those is Fr Wolfe, whose turn that direction and his influence has been documented.

Thank you MM for this most excellent link. I love Fr. Wolfe's teachings I hear on Sensus Fidelium and was fearful to read the document, but there is an update to it that seems to lessen (at least a little) Father's aggression towards SSPX. May God bless and the Virgin protect our good and faithful priests and all of us. I just know Fr. Wolfe, though not perfect, is a holy priest...as are, I am confident, most or all SSPX priests.
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#18
(04-17-2018, 11:30 PM)kono Wrote:
(04-17-2018, 01:12 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: If I may ask ICT, is the priest you met with Fr Wolfe?

I personally know many FSSP priests and many SSPX priests.

I know of no SSPX priest who would deny someone access to the "parish" until they prove they are not anti-FSSP, even if they have publicly shared negative comments about the FSSP.

Likewise, I know of no FSSP priest who would do the same toward those who came from the SSPX.

I have heard through some of those FSSP priests, however, of some of their brethren who have become anti-SSPX zealots, and one of those is Fr Wolfe, whose turn that direction and his influence has been documented.

Thank you MM for this most excellent link. I love Fr. Wolfe's teachings I hear on Sensus Fidelium and was fearful to read the document, but there is an update to it that seems to lessen (at least a little) Father's aggression towards SSPX. May God bless and the Virgin protect our good and faithful priests and all of us. I just know Fr. Wolfe, though not perfect, is a holy priest...as are, I am confident, most or all SSPX priests.

I met Fr. Wolfe long ago and while he never was pro-SSPX, he seemed never to have a real issue with people going back and forth. I know a good friend who regularly visited for direction from him and he suggested that he attend the SSPX Mass in the morning, because Fr. Wolfe's was at noon and he couldn't skip work and still wanted Mass.

Something changed, as the article pointed out, and I know that he has become very anti-SSPX, to the point of taking the position that SSPX priests and followers are truly schismatics.

I understand the trepidation on each side, and certainly have my own pro-SSPX opinion. Still, I don't see anything productive in the priest "making sure" his parishoners take sides in the debate. I think if the priest provide what is necessary Sacramentally and Dogmatically, and then provides gentle guidance as to the theological positions his particular group takes, that is the correct tact.

I was hearted to hear ICT say that this is not Fr. Wolfe, in fact. That is a great relief to me.

I would note, also with the link to Louie's site, he takes what I consider to be a ridiculous quasi-SV stance, so while he's a smart man, I think he may have outsmarted himself on that point.
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#19
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#20
(04-30-2018, 03:13 PM)credidimus-caritati Wrote: I find it strange (and frankly, quite ludicrous), that the priest so explicitly stated that he wanted you to be firmly in the "FSSP camp". That doesn't make any sense. The primary allegiance of every traditional Catholic should not be to support one particular organization within the Church, whether it be the FSSP, SSPX, etc, but to be with the Church --- that is, to be Catholic. I'm personally a supporter of the SSPX and may even consider joining their Third Order in the near future, but I know that the most important thing is to be faithful to Christ, His Church, and Catholic doctrine, rather than to support one organization. The SSPX is not the Church, and neither is the FSSP. And if either of those groups begins to stray from their original purpose, to restore Catholic tradition and protect the integrity of the doctrine against the reign of confusion during today's crisis, then we do not remain allies of these groups, if they ever begin working against the Church. 

That being said, it is not surprising that your priest would take such extreme measures to convince you of the FSSP's position on certain issues in the Church. After all, the FSSP was formed precisely when a group of priests broke off from the SSPX over disagreements about the 1988 Écône consecrations. Not all in the SSPX supported Archbishop Lefebvre's decision, and some left as a result. Now since the FSSP is under diocesan control, however, the dioceses who would like to attack and drive away the SSPX from their territories often end up using the FSSP as a tool. They set up FSSP chapels near SSPX chapels, and encourage the faithful in the diocese who would like to attend the traditional mass to go to the FSSP chapel, often accompanied by (utterly null and void) "decrees of excommunication" against those who attend SSPX masses and receive the sacraments there. 

They do this to drive out the SSPX; if the traditional laity all begin frequenting the FSSP chapels, then the SSPX will leave because no one comes to them. And as soon as the diocesan authorities have succeeded in this goal, they then proceed to kick out the FSSP as well. (In other words, they have no interest in allowing the FSSP to stay for the sake of preserving tradition, but rather solely for the purpose of driving away the SSPX, whom they view as "schismatic".) To put it bluntly, the FSSP puts itself in a kind of "compromise situation" with regard to their relationships with the dioceses. Personally, I'd rather go to the SSPX because the churches assigned to the FSSP by the diocese often contain non-traditional architectural design which is highly distracting and in contradiction with their reverent traditional liturgies.
Peace.....I know the FSSP was asked/told to leave our diocese a number of years ago, but I don't know the reason.  There was and still is an SSPX parish community about 40 mins away from where the FSSP was.  The SSPX is still thriving there but all FSSP are located elsewhere.  God bless, angeltime :heart:
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