Striking one's breast at the Confíteor
#11
(05-07-2018, 08:28 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: I’ve been to Latin Masses where the priest actually asked the people to not say the servers’ responses. I really appreciated that. One of the things I like about the Latin Mass is that I am a lot more free to meditate. There seems to be this mindset that we must always be saying or doing something (think Mary and Martha). I expect it in the Novus Ordo, but I am surprised at how it has spilled over into tradition. There’s nothing prohibiting it, but the rubrics don’t really say a lot about what the laity are supposed to be doing. I’d just do what helps you meditate and don’t do what doesn’t. Also, try to be conscientious about whether our behavior could be seriously distracting to others (and an attempt to get others’ attention).

I get it if people are saying the responses loudly like in the NO. However, there should be no issue with someone quietly wanting to say the responses along with the servers if that's how they wish to pray the Mass.
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#12
(05-07-2018, 08:28 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote:
(05-07-2018, 08:06 AM)GangGreen Wrote: I'm sure you also have people who don't like it if the people in the pews sing along with the choir or say the responses along with the servers too. The way I see it is that the servers and the choir do stuff on behalf of the people, so if you know what they're doing and you want to do it, then do it along with them. I would say that the responding with the servers should be done in a sotto voce type voice as it could be a distraction for others. While doing something like singing the propers completely out of key or just badly would be a silly thing to do, but no one would get on anyone's case for singing the Gloria or the Credo.

I’ve been to Latin Masses where the priest actually asked the people to not say the servers’ responses. I really appreciated that. One of the things I like about the Latin Mass is that I am a lot more free to meditate. There seems to be this mindset that we must always be saying or doing something (think Mary and Martha). I expect it in the Novus Ordo, but I am surprised at how it has spilled over into tradition. There’s nothing prohibiting it, but the rubrics don’t really say a lot about what the laity are supposed to be doing. I’d just do what helps you meditate and don’t do what doesn’t. Also, try to be conscientious about whether our behavior could be seriously distracting to others (and an attempt to get others’ attention).

It's interesting to trace the history of the silent traditional Low Mass where the faithful are not making some kind of responses.

Early along it was common to have one Mass at the Cathedral or Monastary every day. One priest would celebrate the Mass, others would serve in the various roles, and it would be a sung Mass, much like a Solemn Mass, today. Often it was the Abbot or Bishop celebrating the Mass. As Monasticism spread, the notion of each priest saying Mass each day grew up so Low Mass was introduced (because you couldn't have a Sung Mass for every priest every day). This also coincided with more benefices and legacies for Masses.

Gregorian Chant is quite learnable by imitation and memory, but as the middle ages progressed and especially with the Renaissance, there was significant musical development away from the modal structures towards tonal music with greater complexity which required more expert singers, and thus faded the faithful's participation in the singing of the Mass. Then orchestral Masses lasting 3-4 hours with the music came into vogue, so a Sunday Mass simply could not be done, and Low Masses became publicly done.

Since Low Mass was not previously common for public Mass there was no normal practice to respond to it, except the sole server for the priest, but by the time they became more commonplace as public liturgy, people were already in the habit of not responding and letting the semi-professional choir do so. Thus the silent Low Mass.

Another form of Sung Low Mass (the Deutsche Singmesse) became common in Germany wherein the faithful would sing vernacular hymns while the Low Mass was going on, or in place of certain parts of the Mass.

St. Pius X pushed to restore Gregorian Chant, but soon after some, including Pius XI took the next logical step and suggested that at Low Masses, the faithful could make the responses they would at a Sung Mass. Thus they would not merely passively participate (not a bad thing, but not the highest form), but also have a balanced active participation (that oh, how abuséd phrase).

Thus the Dialog Mass (which properly speaking pre-dates the modern liturgical movement which—Pius XI celebrated one in St Peters in 1925—really did not get it's footing among the liberals until the early 1930s)

For whatever reason—Thomas Day suggest the Irish had something to do with it—the English-speaking world did not generally take well to the Dialog Mass. The French and German world accepted it readily.
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#13
(05-07-2018, 03:33 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: For whatever reason—Thomas Day suggest the Irish had something to do with it—the English-speaking world did not generally take well to the Dialog Mass. The French and German world accepted it readily.

Very true. I had a French Pastor who encouraged the laity to respond at Low Mass. His replacement was an American, who soon put a stop to it.
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#14
(05-07-2018, 05:03 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: So, I would suggest that you omit doing so at the elevation (since this is not a penitential time, but one of adoration, and striking of the breast is not a gesture of adoration), omit it at the Nobis Quoque (since the server does not do this, only the priest), and omit the gesture at the Pater Noster (since even the priest does not do this).

Occasionally some also do this during the Salve Regina, but similarly "O clement, O pia, O dulcis" are nor penitential, so the gesture makes little sense here.

I'd have to disagree; striking one's breast at the elevation is a traditional practice among Italians and Spaniards. Who says that striking the breast can't be a gesture of humility and adoration, along with being penitential? We Latins are just weird that way, I mean, we kneel during the Consecration, and kneeling is inherently penitential; it only became a gesture of adoration as well.

Just because the server does not do something doesn't mean the faithful can't. The servers cross themselves in the clerical fashion, with a slightly curved, open hand. Is it then incorrect if I cross myself in the Byzantine fashion? (which, I do) Of course not. 

There are no strict rubrics for the posture and gesture of the laity at the TLM, only customs and expectations. So, acts of personal piety can't be "right" or "wrong;" just different.
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#15
(05-07-2018, 03:39 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(05-07-2018, 03:33 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: For whatever reason—Thomas Day suggest the Irish had something to do with it—the English-speaking world did not generally take well to the Dialog Mass. The French and German world accepted it readily.

Very true. I had a French Pastor who encouraged the laity to respond at Low Mass. His replacement was an American, who soon put a stop to it.

I’m sure there is historical precedence, encouragement from popes and saints, and other defenses of the dialog Mass idea. I’m not sure the French and Germans readily accepting the dialog Mass is a poor defense, given how well is the Faith is doing in France and Germany.

Loud chatter, even prayerful chatter, from the congregation during church can be a bit annoying, and there always seems to be someone who doesn’t get the concept of responding SOFTLY.  I’m not easily distracted at Mass, so I wouldn’t say it bothers me when people respond out loud, but I will say that one of the reasons I quit going to the Novus Ordo is that I realized I was so busy saying and doing stuff all the time that I couldn’t meditate on what was going on.

“Now it came to pass as they went. that he entered into a certain town: and a certain woman named Martha, received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, who sitting also at the Lord’s feet, heard his word. But Martha was busy about much serving. Who stood and said: Lord, hast thou no care that my sister hath left me alone to serve? speak to her therefore, that she help me. And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things: But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.”

- Luke 10:38-42
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