Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes
#55
(05-30-2018, 11:13 AM)pabbie Wrote: Looking back through Church teaching, I have never seen the Church permit challenging a canonization. All documentation I have found says canonizations are always infallible; so I don't see how there is any wiggle room to challenge them.

However there is plenty of Church teaching and past occurrences that show that a man acting as Pope may not actually be Pope due to invalid election or heresy, in which case he could not possibly promulgate or receive a canonization. So this would appear to be the only possibility.

Well in fact not only is the latter theory not up for debate on this forum, but it's as much speculation as either of the other positions.

Plenty of theologians have talked about its possibility. Few have agreed on precisely how that would work out, leaving at least a half-dozen opinions on the matter. But it's never happened before, so it's speculative theology.

Many (not all) theologians have attributed a secondary kind of infallibility to canonizations. It is not dogma, and while it is would be temerity to challenge it without some serious reason, clearly that exists. It also only applies to those which were made a part of a thorough canonical process, not those saints who were canonized by equivalent processes or acclaimed or whose cult was the result of a devotion from antiquity without Papal intervention.

The question is now whether the reduction of that canonical process has changed the object (or if it were previously overstated), or if it makes these not an act of infallibility any longer. I don't presume to answer that question, but it's a fair question for discussion since it's not merely speculative, but founded on certain facts which war against the standard theology.

I don't see this any different from the present situation in the Church, really.

You have the Conservative/FSSP position, the SSPX and the SVs. Each position has pros and cons.

For example, the Conservative/FSSP/Hermeneutic of Continuity position must assert that the problems with the new theology and crisis are not thanks to Vatican II itself and cannot really be attributed to the Pope himself, but ultimately only reflect a "misinterpretation" of Vatican II which is completely orthodox, as have been all the Pope that have followed. We thus save the 1950s vision of the Pope's near impeccability among other things, but play down the crisis.

The SSPX/R&R position suggests that in fact it was Vatican II that contains errors and ambiguities, and the Popes that have followed have taught error (but not definitively). The major weight of the crisis is on their shoulders. This has the disadvantage of putting one in a precarious balancing situation to both try to preserve the traditional respect and obedience to the hierarchy, while still rejecting what in 1900 would have probably made one suspect of schism, and the added disadvantage of being marginalized.

The SV position solves the Vatican II and Pope question simply, allows one to preserve that customary near-impeccability of Popes and Councils, but in doing do introduces serious problems with the indefectibility of the Church and its continuity.

The fact that people have to take a position is not their fault. The important thing is to reasonably consider the position with all of its theological consequences.
Reply


Messages In This Thread
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-10-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:25 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:26 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-14-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-12-2018, 08:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-13-2018, 12:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 01:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:19 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by MagisterMusicae - 05-30-2018, 04:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-31-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-01-2018, 09:52 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-03-2018, 02:56 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 11:04 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:21 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:39 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 04:54 PM



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)