Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes
#63
(05-30-2018, 10:03 PM)pabbie Wrote: You are making up your own rules here. You take "A Catholic Dictionary", a very trusted resource with imprimatur, and toss it out as worthless, then refer to the Catholic Encyclopedia which holds the same weight.

 
I didn't make up any rules - I stated the Catholic Encyclopedia is not infallible either, it simply brings up a better point.
 
 
Quote:Something doesn't need to be defined solemnly for us to believe it, so Catholics need to stop using the "not infallible" argument - it's a false argument.

 
 
Yet, at the same time, things can be subject to err.
 

What I am trying to say is if you and I cannot come up with an authoritative source that says X is true and infallible then we have only two things to go by.
 
1. We go by way of what is already defined. And the only thing solemnity defined in canonization is that a person is a saint - which doesn't actually follow that everything else confirmed in the canonization process is infallible.
 
 
2. Actual examples of problematic so-called saints that we can run our claims against. So in this situation, you must prove that JPII's actions are worthy of the title "Saint." So far, no explanation from you has come forth. If everything you claim is infallible, then we have a problem here and it's up to you to prove that being an accessory to breaking the first commandment and sacrilege  is a-ok for someone who we should emulate. 
 
 
For myself, I already found a plausible answer: certain affirmations in canonizations cannot be infallible. What is ridiculous is that you want to argue that emulation and heroic virtue are infallible when we have someone like JPII. MagisterMusicae’s position and my own at least get around the glaring contradiction and impossibly that someone can do these things and be considered a “saint.” What’s your explanation?

 
 
 
Quote:If the Church makes an infallible declaration, then all information gathered to come to that conclusion must also be free from error. You can't have a single error in a multistep equation and expect to come out to a true answer.

 
False. As the declaration itself does not deal with the individual as being safe for emulation, possessing heroic virtue, and producing miracles.

How in the world is the gathering of information also infallible? Herein lies the real novelty.
 
Quote:Picking apart the canonization process looking for errors is nothing but a novelty. If a Pope canonizes someone we cannot question it or pick it apart looking for flaws. As mentioned already, the only way we can possibly question it is if the Pope has no authority due to invalid election, or lost authority due to heresy. Other than that Catholics cannot question infallible declarations in any way.


 
You presume that everything in a canonization is infallible, and then presume that I am questioning what is infallible – which is not what I am arguing.
 
Also, one can certainly question the prudence of declaring something infallibly. I.E. not questioning the doctrine in and of itself, but questioning whether it was wise to declare it. E.G., even if JPII is in heaven, it was not wise to infallibly declare so.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-10-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:25 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:26 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-14-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-12-2018, 08:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-13-2018, 12:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 01:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:19 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Vulgate - 05-30-2018, 10:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-31-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-01-2018, 09:52 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-03-2018, 02:56 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 11:04 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:21 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:39 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 04:54 PM



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