Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes
#67
(05-31-2018, 12:23 PM)pabbie Wrote: I have already provided you with a trusted source with imprimatur that confirms that when someone is canonized, that infallible declaration is also a confirmation of heroic virtue. That's what the definition states and you simply tossed it aside and said it's "not infallible". You have no grounds for doing so.

One source does not theology make.

Every major publication of the Neo-Modernists before Vatican II had an imprimatur.

(05-31-2018, 12:23 PM)pabbie Wrote: I am with you 100% in that some of JP II's actions were clearly not that of a saint, and I have already provided my opinion on that based on what the Church has taught on the subject. The only logical answer is that had no authority due to invalid election or heresy. Nothing else makes sense. Saying that parts of the canonization process are not infallible is a complete novelty and not found in any Catholic book - this goes along the same lines as those in the SSPX who say Vatican II, a General Council, was not infallible (when General Councils always are infallible, no exceptions).

First off, as we discussed before a "General Council" is not infallible. This is not a theological term, but a medieval term which applied to Ecumenical Councils, Provincial Councils, National Councils, Plenary Councils, Metropolitan synods, etc. Among those only an Ecumenical Council can be infallible, but even there the infallibility of it is limited and specific.

Clearly the disciplinary canons of Nicaea are not infallible, since many have changed. However when such Councils (with the approval of the Pope) define a doctrine, then clearly they act infallibly.

For example The Council of Trent, Sess. XV, Dec. de Reg., cap. 2 writes :

Quote:For no Regular, therefore, whether man, or woman, shall it be lawful to possess, or hold as his own, or even in the name of the convent, any property moveable or immoveable, of what nature soever it may be, or in what way soever acquired; but the same shall be immediately delivered up to the Superior, and be incorporated with the convent. Nor shall it henceforth be lawful for Superiors to allow any real property to any Regular, not even by way of having the interest, or the use, the administration thereof, or in commendam. But the administration of the property of monasteries, or of convents, shall belong to the officers thereof only, removable at the will of their Superiors.

Yet later the Code of Canon Law and various decrees changed this discipline to accommodate simple vows in religious institutes, so it clearly is a merely disciplinary decree, not a dogmatic one. Yet it was from a "General Council" and approved by the Pope. So, your principle, aside from being terminologically ill-defined is also far too broad.

The logic is only as simple as you make it out if you ignore the complexities of Catholic theology and want to make all of Catholic theology as simple as a grade-school Catechism.

Theology is a complex subject with many things well-defined, but also many disputed points. Canonization and the various aspects of it are one of those disputed points. Generally they were accepted as infallible, but most theologians who wrote on the subject was not the same "infallibility" as the Assumption or Trent's decrees.

Also you have a process for the canonization which has changed, so clearly there are parts which are not infallible, if aspects can change.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-10-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:25 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:26 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-14-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-12-2018, 08:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-13-2018, 12:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 01:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:19 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-31-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by MagisterMusicae - 05-31-2018, 04:48 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-01-2018, 09:52 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-03-2018, 02:56 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 11:04 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:21 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:39 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 04:54 PM



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