Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes
#70
(05-31-2018, 06:43 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-31-2018, 06:01 PM)pabbie Wrote: Here is another source that says the Church only canonizes and beatifies those with heroic virtue. There is no further reason to challenge this.

Catholic Encyclopedia, Beatification and canonization:
"The Catholic Church canonizes or beatifies only those whose lives have been marked by the exercise of heroic virtue, and only after this has been proved by common repute for sanctity and by conclusive arguments...."

You can quote 100 sources, but quoting sources is not doing theology or studying the relevant question, nor it is understanding what the sources are saying.

The Church has never defined that Canonization is infallible, nor has she ever defined the object of that infallibility. These rely on various theologians. The consensus of those theologians prior to the present time is that when a canonical process concluded the decree of canonization shared in some aspect of infallibility flowing from the Pope. The general consensus was that the object of this infallibility included the definition of heroic virtue.

This consensus existed at least in part because of the rigor of the process which established heroic virtue along with the certainty of several miracles undeniably attributable to the person in question after such a process which helped guaranteed divine confirmation of that prudential decision.

The debate now takes the fact that we have fewer, and in some cases, no miracles confirmed, and a very lax process combined with a new notion of sanctity and virtue, and even reports that the Popes themselves did not believe such canonizations to be infallible decisions.

Quoting sources does not address that problem, nor does it answer the relevant questions.

(05-31-2018, 06:01 PM)pabbie Wrote: As for Councils, the terms "Ecumenical Council" and "General Council" are often used interchangeably. Regardless of the term used, the Catholic Church has always declared them infallible without question since this is promised in Scripture. All Catholic books say it and the First Vatican Council confirmed it when it stated:

"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Which no one here denies. The key phrase is "divinely revealed truths".

Not everything even an Ecumenical Council says is a "divinely revealed truth" so again, quoting sources does not help. The question always is precisely what is being dogmatically defined, and therefore, what must be believed.

Again, the situation we are in and the hard work which is theology are far more complex that you are trying to make them.

No one denies there are problems, which is precisely why there are such open questions, but you cannot hope to solve such a complex problem by recourse only to the Catholic Encyclopedia or a dictionary.

If you are not familiar with the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, Benedict XIV, Suarez, Billuart, Billot, and a dozen other major authors on the subject you simply have inadequate tools to answer the question definitively : you're trying to use a Cresent Wrench for finish carpentry.
 
It is Canon Law that confirms both General Councils and canonizations are infallible. What you are doing is challenging Canon Law, which no Catholic can do. I don't think I really need to comment any further on this.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-10-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:25 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:26 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-14-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-12-2018, 08:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-13-2018, 12:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 01:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:19 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-31-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by pabbie - 06-01-2018, 02:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-01-2018, 09:52 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-03-2018, 02:56 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 11:04 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:21 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:39 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 04:54 PM



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