Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes
#85
(06-04-2018, 04:06 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-04-2018, 01:39 PM)pabbie Wrote:
(06-03-2018, 06:42 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-03-2018, 10:02 AM)pabbie Wrote: There is another scenario you are not considering. Are you aware that there have been Popes in the past that have convened a General Council and given it a stamp of approval, then afterward the Pope was declared an antipope, resulting in his General Council being declared illegitimate?

Which Antipope and which allegedly "General Council"?
 
There have been roughly 40 anti-popes throughout the history of the Church, and roughly 20 illegitimate Councils.

Some examples of antipopes would be Felix II, Paschal, Honorius II, and Felix V. Some examples of illegitimate councils would be that of Milan, Pisa, Antioch, Arles. There are plenty to read about.

There have been many antipopes and several councils which have been considered heretical or illegitimate. The problem with your argument is the two never collide.

There is no Ecumenical Council which later was declared invalid or illegitimate due to being called by or approved by an antipope.

Let us take your examples :

Felix II was an antipope who was elected when the Roman Emperor exiled Pope Liberius to extract from him the acceptance of a ambiguous Arian forumla. He never called a council.

Paschal at best had the support of some clergy and controlled a portion of the Lateran basilica and palace, but was never established or accepted by many. He never called a council.

Honorius II was elected by a small faction of anti-reformist bishops in Parma a month after the election of Pope Alexander II. He had limited support and was recognized only in a few places. When the German Emperor (the anti-reform movement was mostly German) was called to mediate the dispute, he decided in Alexander's favor. Honorious did not like this, assembled some favorable bishops at a synod (which was never considered an Ecumenical Council by anyone), and eventually gathered an army to march on Rome. He was eventually defeated and excommunicated by the local (non-Ecumenical) Council of Mantua.

Felix V was elected by the Council of Basel, but this was after Pope Eugene IV declared it closed and transferred the council to Ferrara and the Florence. The bishops at Basel refused to obey the Pope. He invited them to Ferrara, but they refused, so he excommunicated the lot who remained. The now-excommunicated and schismatic bishops presumed to continue the Council, declared the Council superior to the Pope, presumed to excommunicate and depose the Pope Eugene IV for schism and elected Antipope Felix V. This is the closest one could come to claiming that an antipope called a council that was later determined to be invalid, but in reality it was the schismatic and invalid council that called the antipope.

So, in short : Nego simpliciter.
 
You've entirely missed the point I was making. The point is that it is possible for a man who is claiming to be Pope to actually not be a Pope at all, without people realizing it. And it is also possible for a Council to be illegitimate (if it was not approved by a true Pope) and people not realize it. I'm simply saying such scenarios have happened in the past and that Catholics should not rule them out in the current crisis.

The dogma of "infallibility of the Church" states that the Catholic Church is divinely kept from the possibility of error in teachings on faith and morals, so it is impossible to say that Vatican II is from the Church and at the same time teaches error. Is also impossible to say the Church has canonized someone and made any errors in the process. This dogma, that the Church cannot teach error, is something that all Catholics must believe, yet people in these discussions constantly show they don't trust the Church. If you see error, and the source claims to represent the Catholic Church, we know with certainty that they cannot be legitimate representatives.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-10-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:25 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:26 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-14-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-12-2018, 08:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-13-2018, 12:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 01:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:19 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-31-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-01-2018, 09:52 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-03-2018, 02:56 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by pabbie - 06-05-2018, 12:43 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 11:04 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:21 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:39 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 04:54 PM



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