Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes
(06-07-2018, 04:46 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-07-2018, 04:07 PM)pabbie Wrote: All the quotes from the Church on the subject of Popes and heresy confirm that the warning requirement does not apply to a Pope, and this is precisely because he has no superiors but God.

Is that an exclusive universal, because if you note above, Cajetan says that a Pope must be deposed, which indicates that at least one major theologian says that the Pope must be judged in this limited case.

(06-07-2018, 04:07 PM)pabbie Wrote: To say he requires a warning means the warning would have to come from a subordinate. In that case, anyone could warn him.

So we cannot warn him to determine if he really actually realizes he is teaching something contrary to the Faith, but we can decide what he is saying is heresy and that he's lost his office as a result?

We cannot do the lesser, but can do the greater ... totally illogical.

And provably false. Case in point: the Curious Case of John XXII.

(06-07-2018, 04:07 PM)pabbie Wrote: The quotes all concur that if heresy is seen coming from a Pope, and that heresy is manifest or explicit, the man cannot possibly be a Pope.

But manifest, again, is a canonical term. Those same quotes all concur that we need the formal crime of heresy, not material heresy, not the sin of heresy, not an heretical statement. The crime of heresy.

Who determines that a crime has been committed? The authority.

(06-07-2018, 04:07 PM)pabbie Wrote: As for pertinacity, if a Pope puts his stamp of approval on an explicit heresy for all the faithful to believe, he cannot claim ignorance because all the bishops would point it out to him. The fact that he doesn't immediately recant qualifies as pertinacious.

So he's stubborn because he approved something. In what universe does stubborn mean doing something once?
 
To clarify, it's not that the Pope can't be warned - we obviously see this all the time today with cardinals and bishops and even laypeople speaking out and questioning what Pope Francis has been saying. What I'm saying is a Pope receiving a warning from his subordinates is not a mandatory part of the process where Pope loses his pontificate due to heresy, as you said was the case.

As for material heresy (heresy due to ignorance), certainly a Pope cannot claim ignorance to heresy in the case of something like ecumenism where it is clearly condemned in Scripture, has been condemned by previous popes, and where all the current cardinals and bishops of the world can easily point it out.

As for the pertinacity of Paul VI, he obviously never recanted on his decision to approve the decree on ecumenism before his death in 1978. Rather we see all of his successors take the torch of ecumenism and continue carrying it. We have the Assisi meetings in each of the last 4 decades to easily confirm this. Catholics can obviously see this is a divergence from the Deposit of Faith and they are not judging any Pope but pointing it out and avoiding it until the Church resolves the matter officially.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-10-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:25 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-11-2018, 01:26 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-14-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-15-2018, 02:59 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-12-2018, 08:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-13-2018, 12:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 01:11 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:19 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-30-2018, 02:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 05-31-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-01-2018, 09:52 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-03-2018, 02:56 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by pabbie - 06-08-2018, 08:55 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 11:04 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:21 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:39 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:35 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 02:42 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Vatican canonizes un-Catholic popes - by Paul - 06-14-2018, 04:54 PM



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