I disagree (vehemently) w/ St Augustine.. so call me Heretic or whatever
#21
(05-25-2018, 05:34 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(05-25-2018, 01:12 PM)randomtradguy Wrote: To the OP: talk to a priest about this stuff. I had to talk to a priest after I realized that many trads are Jansenist.
1.) God is love 
2.) God loves us 
3.) baptism of desire is a doctrine of the church

Regarding #3 - 'fraid not.

Baptism of desire is a hypothesis. 

It is a dogma that baptism (i.e., with true and natural water) is necessary for salvation, and to say otherwise is anathema.
It's as much a hypothesis as limbo.
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#22
(05-25-2018, 05:38 PM)randomtradguy Wrote:
(05-25-2018, 05:34 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(05-25-2018, 01:12 PM)randomtradguy Wrote: To the OP: talk to a priest about this stuff. I had to talk to a priest after I realized that many trads are Jansenist.
1.) God is love 
2.) God loves us 
3.) baptism of desire is a doctrine of the church

Regarding #3 - 'fraid not.

Baptism of desire is a hypothesis. 

It is a dogma that baptism (i.e., with true and natural water) is necessary for salvation, and to say otherwise is anathema.

From wiki 
The Catholic 1582 Rheims New Testament, the first published tome of the Douay-Rheims Bible, specifically notes in its annotations to John 3:5 both the necessity of Baptism and the availability of Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. The Catholic Church had been expelled from England at the time of the production of the Bible and many annotations were designed to assist lay Catholics to keep to their faith in the absence of clergy.

That's nice.  However, annotations placed in a vernacular translation of the old and vulgate edition of the scriptures do not require assent by their nature, especially when they contradict or are contrary to dogma.  These annotations are not scripture.  In actuality, the necessity of Holy Baptism has been discussed by numerous councils and settled by numerous popes ex cathedra.
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#23
From the Catechism of Saint Pius X,

Quote:17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
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#24
(05-25-2018, 06:05 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: From the Catechism of Saint Pius X,

Quote:17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Yes, it’s interesting that this comes up in several catechisms and yet is contradicted in dogmatic definitions made in ecumenical councils and anathematized in the canons.
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#25
St Thomas has this to say...

I answer that, As stated above, Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: for as much as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Isaiah 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#26
(05-25-2018, 07:12 PM)Dominicus Wrote: St Thomas has this to say...

I answer that, As stated above, Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: for as much as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Isaiah 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

It is interesting that the one example provided by St. Thomas is of a person who died prior the promulgation of the gospel.  Also interesting is the explanation of St. Augustine does not refer to the absence of Holy Baptism, but rather what "was lacking in Baptism."  And, the explanation refers to withholding "the celebration of the mystery of Baptism", i.e., the ritual, and not withholding the sacrament.
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#27
"Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him."

From this it is quite clear that he is referring to not just those before Christ's death and resurrection but afterwards as well otherwise it would be impossible to conform oneself to Christs passion. Likewise he is obviously referring to the essentual sacrament itself and not the non-essential parts as he specifically indicates that baptism of water and the sacramental effects thereof are missing.
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#28
Aren't there actual declared saints in the Church who were martyred as catechumens? Shouldn't that answer the question at the very least when it comes to martyrdom and prove that such cases are clearly possible?
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#29
(05-25-2018, 11:15 PM)GangGreen Wrote: Aren't there actual declared saints in the Church who were martyred as catechumens? Shouldn't that answer the question at the very least when it comes to martyrdom and prove that such cases are clearly possible?

Yes there are but I can't think of their names off the top of my head
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#30
(05-25-2018, 11:21 PM)Dominicus Wrote: Yes there are but I can't think of their names off the top of my head

St Emerentiana, the foster-sister of St Agnes, who was stoned to death by pagans while praying at her sister's tomb, while still a catechumen.
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