I disagree (vehemently) w/ St Augustine.. so call me Heretic or whatever
#31
(05-25-2018, 10:22 PM)Dominicus Wrote: "Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him."

From this it is quite clear that he is referring to not just those before Christ's death and resurrection but afterwards as well otherwise it would be impossible to conform oneself to Christs passion. Likewise he is obviously referring to the essentual sacrament itself and not the non-essential parts as he specifically indicates that baptism of water and the sacramental effects thereof are missing.

"The Good Thief" died after Our Lord, but before the promulgation of the gospel.
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#32
(05-25-2018, 11:21 PM)Dominicus Wrote:
(05-25-2018, 11:15 PM)GangGreen Wrote: Aren't there actual declared saints in the Church who were martyred as catechumens? Shouldn't that answer the question at the very least when it comes to martyrdom and prove that such cases are clearly possible?

Yes there are but I can't think of their names off the top of my head

I think the story of Sts. Perpetua and Felicity and their companions. I know St. Perpetua is said to have been baptized before being imprisoned, but I'm not sure about the rest.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

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#33
(05-25-2018, 11:31 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(05-25-2018, 10:22 PM)Dominicus Wrote: "Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him."

From this it is quite clear that he is referring to not just those before Christ's death and resurrection but afterwards as well otherwise it would be impossible to conform oneself to Christs passion. Likewise he is obviously referring to the essentual sacrament itself and not the non-essential parts as he specifically indicates that baptism of water and the sacramental effects thereof are missing.

"The Good Thief" died after Our Lord, but before the promulgation of the gospel.

And here st Thomas makes no mention of St. Dismas. It's only until he quotes Augustine that he brings up the good thief. Prior to this it is clear that he is speaking not just about those before the promulgation of the gospel but afterwards as well.

Tell me how can one unite oneself to Christ's passion and suffer for Christ if Christ Himself has not yet died?
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#34
From the Roman Martyrology, 7 March,

Quote:At Tuburbe, in Morocco, under the Emperor Severus, the holy martyrs Perpetua and Felicitas. Felicitas was with child, and therefore was respited, in accordance with the law, until after she was delivered. Holy Augustine saith that when she was in travail she had sorrow, but when she was set before the wild beasts she rejoiced. There suffered along with them Revocatus, Saturninus, and Secundolus, of whom the last died in prison, but the others were all killed by beasts. 

According to the 'Passion of Saint Perpetua, Saint Felicitas, and their Companions', one of the oldest surviving Christian texts, all of these were Catechumens.
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#35
(05-25-2018, 11:31 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(05-25-2018, 10:22 PM)Dominicus Wrote: "Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him."

From this it is quite clear that he is referring to not just those before Christ's death and resurrection but afterwards as well otherwise it would be impossible to conform oneself to Christs passion. Likewise he is obviously referring to the essentual sacrament itself and not the non-essential parts as he specifically indicates that baptism of water and the sacramental effects thereof are missing.

"The Good Thief" died after Our Lord, but before the promulgation of the gospel.

"Emerentiána virgo Romána, collactánea beátæ Agnétis, adhuc catechúmena, fide et caritáte flagrans, furéntes in Christiános idolórum cultóres cum veheméntius accusáret, a concitáta multitúdine lapídibus óbruta est. Quæ in cruciátibus orans ad sepúlcrum sanctæ Agnétis, próprio sánguine, quem pro Christo constánter effúdit, baptizáta, ánimam Deo réddidit.

Emerentiana, a Roman virgin and the foster-sister of the blessed Agnes, while she was still a Catechumen, burning with faith and charity, rebuked the idol-worshippers who were full of fury against the Christians, whereupon a mob assembled and stoned her. Praying in her torment at the grave of Saint Agnes, and having been baptized in her own blood, so generously shed for Christ, she gave up her soul unto God."

"There is also St. Genesius of Arles, whose feast day is on August 25. His official acta read thus:

Quote:
Genesius, native of Arles, at first a soldier became known for his proficiency in writing, and was made secretary to the magistrate of Arles. While performing the duties of his office the decree of persecution against the Christians was read in his presence. Outraged in his ideas of justice, the young catechumen cast his tablets at the feet of the magistrate and fled. He was captured and executed, and thus received baptism in his own blood."


http://iteadthomam.blogspot.com/2008/01/...yites.html

Baltimore Catechism, 1891:

"157. Q. How many kinds of Baptism are there?

A. There are three kinds of Baptism: Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood."
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#36
Would you say that saints Emerentiana and Perpetua are in Hell? I would say not, especially as St. Perpetua is invoked in the newer version of the litany of the saints.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#37
I know that the Fathers at the Council of Trent were pretty serious about this subject.  There's more, but for example, here's the second canon from the seventh session:

"If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema."

I posted quite a bit on this from a number of councils on the first page of this thread.

The reason that I call baptism of desire (i.e., some human desire effects a man's salvation) a hypothesis is that it falls amongst that which is unverified (and how can you verify that which is hidden from observation?); it is also never taught as binding upon the assent of faith.  I contend, however, it is unverifiable and contrary to dogma, but that is a different discussion.

My point here is that there are very infinitessimally few circumstances in which a reasonable man does not carry water or is not near water, and every single human person on the face of the earth can minister Holy Baptism.  God has even been shown to take extraordinary measures to provide a minister or opportunity of the sacrament of baptism, as in the case of Philip and the Eunuch or Joan of Arc with the stillborn baby.
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#38
(05-26-2018, 12:19 AM)yablabo Wrote: I know that the Fathers at the Council of Trent were pretty serious about this subject.  There's more, but for example, here's the second canon from the seventh session:

"If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema."

I posted quite a bit on this from a number of councils on the first page of this thread.

The reason that I call baptism of desire (i.e., some human desire effects a man's salvation) a hypothesis is that it falls amongst that which is unverified (and how can you verify that which is hidden from observation?); it is also never taught as binding upon the assent of faith.  I contend, however, it is unverifiable and contrary to dogma, but that is a different discussion.

My point here is that there are very infinitessimally few circumstances in which a reasonable man does not carry water or is not near water, and every single human person on the face of the earth can minister Holy Baptism.  God has even been shown to take extraordinary measures to provide a minister or opportunity of the sacrament of baptism, as in the case of Philip and the Eunuch or Joan of Arc with the stillborn baby.

And yet there are indeed saints who were never baptized. It's important to recognize that baptism of desire and blood are not actual sacramental baptisms. They are to baptism as Perfect contrition is to confession. In fact perfect contrition is a prerequisite to baptism of desire or blood.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#39
(05-26-2018, 12:17 AM)Dominicus Wrote: Would you say that saints Emerentiana and Perpetua are in Hell? I would say not, especially as St. Perpetua is invoked in the newer version of the litany of the saints.

Don't forget that the ancient catechumenate lasted for ten years.  After three years of pre-baptismal catechesis the catechumen was admitted to Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist.  Once baptized, they were required to continue instruction for the remainder of their catechumenate (a further seven years) and to live in established Christian communities or prove their Christian virtue.

The Church does not claim these were unbaptized, but rather that they were catechumens.  The meaning is lost today because we interchange that word with "unbaptized person preparing for baptism" when in fact the word literally means "one being instructed".  As late as the 14th century, the word catechumen was used to mean a new convert to Christianity.  So, it appears that it is not until recently that the sense of "unbaptized" was conveyed with the word catechumen.

Regarding the baptism in blood by martyrdom, absolutely, I believe it in the case of the martyrs just as it is taught by the Church.  It is not stated, however, that the baptism in blood did not follow a baptism in true and natural water.
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#40
I just quoted st Thomas saying that martyrdom could supply the effects of baptism without actually having a sacramental baptism.
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