I disagree (vehemently) w/ St Augustine.. so call me Heretic or whatever
#51
yablabo
(05-26-2018, 03:42 AM)Dominicus Wrote: Yablabo. I ask you to read article 2 of question 68 of the third part of the Summa theologica and then tell me if you still deny baptism of desire and blood.

I read it. I do not agree with your interpretation of it.


Well that settles it. Theres not very many ways to interpret it. St. Thomas isn't exactly ambiguous. He specifically states that some can be saved without the sacrament of baptism by means of the interior sanctification ie. baptism of desire.

He says

"The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism"
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#52
(05-26-2018, 04:19 AM)Dominicus Wrote: yablabo
(05-26-2018, 03:42 AM)Dominicus Wrote: Yablabo. I ask you to read article 2 of question 68 of the third part of the Summa theologica and then tell me if you still deny baptism of desire and blood.

I read it. I do not agree with your interpretation of it.


Well that settles it. Theres not very many ways to interpret it. St. Thomas isn't exactly ambiguous. He specifically states that some can be saved without the sacrament of baptism by means of the interior sanctification ie. baptism of desire.

He says

"The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism"

St. Thomas Aquinas did not write in English, hence my disagreement with your interpretation.  The speculation regarding the invisible workings of God for a person who apparently dies without baptism is only speculation in absence of either defined dogma or observation of the invisible.  The fact is that there is a contradiction between what the Popes have taught ex cathedra via the councils and what people speculate regarding what they call baptism of desire and baptism of blood.  We all have to agree on the ex cathedra, we do not have to agree on the speculation. Though we are also forbidden to speculate in any way contrary to or in contradiction to defined dogma.
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#53
Council of Trent, On the Sacraments:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
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#54
(05-26-2018, 11:00 AM)Paul Wrote: Council of Trent, On the Sacraments:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

I agree, though "desire" is an odd translation for votum.
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#55
(05-26-2018, 11:00 AM)Paul Wrote: Council of Trent, On the Sacraments:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

I'm not sure who you believe is correct in this discussion, Paul, so it's tricky for me to respond to this, but your post does acknowledge the "desire" that has been previously mentioned. Also, no one who supports BoB/BoD is saying that the sacraments are superfluous.
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#56
(05-26-2018, 02:33 PM)In His Love Wrote:
(05-26-2018, 11:00 AM)Paul Wrote: Council of Trent, On the Sacraments:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

I'm not sure who you believe is correct in this discussion, Paul, so it's tricky for me to respond to this, but your post does acknowledge the "desire" that has been previously mentioned. Also, no one who supports BoB/BoD is saying that the sacraments are superfluous.

*the desire thereof, is a contested translation of the canon.  The word in Latin is "votum" which is a vow or promise made to God, not a desire in the sense of a human passion.  That is why I stated that the translation is odd.  Also, re-read the canon.  The grace of justification may be achieved with the sacraments or the "desire/votum" thereof, for example prior to a valid sacrament of penance a person may return to the state of grace through true contrition with the votum of recourse to the sacrament of confession at the earliest opportunity.  This is in actuality the only case in which we know of the Church teaching that the state of grace can precede the sacrament.

However, the sacraments are necessary unto salvation.  Salvation and justification are not interchangeable.
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#57
I don't know a way to say this that doesn't sound like I'm being a smart aleck, so I do apologize, but...if your interpretation contradicts the teaching of Douay-Rheims Bible commentaries, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the 1891 Baltimore Catechism, the Catechism of Pius X, the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, and the recorded stories of martyrs, perhaps it is your interpretation that is wrong.
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#58
(05-26-2018, 03:15 PM)In His Love Wrote: I don't know a way to say this that doesn't sound like I'm being a smart aleck, so I do apologize, but...if your interpretation contradicts the teaching of Douay-Rheims Bible commentaries, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the 1891 Baltimore Catechism, the Catechism of Pius X, the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, and the recorded stories of martyrs, perhaps it is your interpretation that is wrong.

Indeed.  And perhaps if the Rheims commentary, numerous local/regional catechisms, private commentaries on catholic doctrine, and lay people contradict the dogma, perhaps it is they who are wrong, eh?  I mean, catholic doctrine is not by consensus, but rather from a teaching authority.  When the authority says anathema, we pretty much have to forsake all others, eh?
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#59
(05-26-2018, 04:05 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(05-26-2018, 03:15 PM)In His Love Wrote: I don't know a way to say this that doesn't sound like I'm being a smart aleck, so I do apologize, but...if your interpretation contradicts the teaching of Douay-Rheims Bible commentaries, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the 1891 Baltimore Catechism, the Catechism of Pius X, the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, and the recorded stories of martyrs, perhaps it is your interpretation that is wrong.

Indeed.  And perhaps if the Rheims commentary, numerous local/regional catechisms, private commentaries on catholic doctrine, and lay people contradict the dogma, perhaps it is they who are wrong, eh?  I mean, catholic doctrine is not by consensus, but rather from a teaching authority.  When the authority says anathema, we pretty much have to forsake all others, eh?

Except you have yet to give any sources which explicitly, unequivocally denies baptism of desire and blood whereas we have given many which point otherwise.
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#60
(05-26-2018, 03:08 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(05-26-2018, 02:33 PM)In His Love Wrote:
(05-26-2018, 11:00 AM)Paul Wrote: Council of Trent, On the Sacraments:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

I'm not sure who you believe is correct in this discussion, Paul, so it's tricky for me to respond to this, but your post does acknowledge the "desire" that has been previously mentioned. Also, no one who supports BoB/BoD is saying that the sacraments are superfluous.

*the desire thereof, is a contested translation of the canon.  The word in Latin is "votum" which is a vow or promise made to God, not a desire in the sense of a human passion.  That is why I stated that the translation is odd.  Also, re-read the canon.  The grace of justification may be achieved with the sacraments or the "desire/votum" thereof, for example prior to a valid sacrament of penance a person may return to the state of grace through true contrition with the votum of recourse to the sacrament of confession at the earliest opportunity.  This is in actuality the only case in which we know of the Church teaching that the state of grace can precede the sacrament.

However, the sacraments are necessary unto salvation.  Salvation and justification are not interchangeable.
The word "desire" in this context refers not to a passion but to an act of the will. The Latin word "votum" can be variously interpreted as "vow", "offering", "desire", "wish", or "prayer". 

The baptism of desire does not mean simply "wanting" to be baptized but a firm movement of the will. One must truly be set on receiving baptism, must have firm contrition and purpose of amendment and lastly must have the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and charity which can only be given by God. 

The normal means of attaining these gifts is through baptism but as St. Thomas says, we are bound by the sacraments but God is not.
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